Ship of the Week: Excelsior

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:45 pm

Well then it comes to what do you 'think' with what we know. It would seem pretty stupid to compare the defiant to a GCS other wise there would have been no point in building them.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:48 pm

Some of this is cannon, some of it is thoery and some just old fashion guess work. But in the end take what you know and match it to what you have seen. Then you'll have a basis to build from, its not hard but don't be afraid to just throw it out there and see if it works.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:50 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Well then it comes to what do you 'think' with what we know.

Yes, but you claimed it was fact, saying it would wipe the floor with the Galaxy.

Obviously the Defiant is a better warship, - in that it's smaller, more manoeuvrable, higher firepower:mass ratio - but it doesn't mean overall it's more powerful.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:02 pm

If a ship can win then it is more powerful. Maybe not in part but as a whole. The defiant was built to face the borg so we know it is stronger then the GCS. The lakota dueled and pared with the defiant. The dominion used its battle cruiser when ever dealing with the defiant but we never got to see them go at it. From this mix of cannon then add theory and you can deduce where those ships stand to one another.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:17 pm

Jeez, I go away for a few hours and look what happens....

Deepcrush wrote:Rochey! Give me a reason as to why you think so poorly of my ship!

Eh? I don't think poorly of it. It's a highly effective ship, where did I state otherwise?

Mikey wrote:Rochey, time to take off the rose-colored glasses...

What? I hadn't even replied for two whole pages.

those ridiculously long nacelle struts and connecting neck of the Connie are MUCH more egregious examples of style over practicality than those of the Excelsior.

I know they're stupid. Where did I ever state the Connie was a smart design?

I know you're going to put up an emoticon of someone shooting someone else for talking about your Connie, but you made the claim of the Excelsior starting the "form over function" trend. Don't start none, won't be none.

Federation ships were stupidly designed since TOS first began. The Excelsior simply started the 'aerodynamic' shapes of later Starfleet designs, all of which are pointless and in some cases impede the ship's effectiveness. That's all I was pointing out. Both the Connie and the Excelsior are insane designs, I never stated otherwise.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:17 pm

Deepcrush wrote:If a ship can win then it is more powerful. Maybe not in part but as a whole. The defiant was built to face the borg so we know it is stronger then the GCS.

What?!
I don't even need to offer a counter to that. That reasoning is utterly stupid!

The lakota dueled and pared with the defiant. The dominion used its battle cruiser when ever dealing with the defiant but we never got to see them go at it. From this mix of cannon then add theory and you can deduce where those ships stand to one another.

Yes. From adding theory you can deduce anything. If I add theory to the strength of the Sovereign then I could say it could take on the entire Borg Collective by itself.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:33 pm

So now you're just trying to be a moron. Congrads, you've succeeded. With flying colors I would add.

I said add "theory" (an idea built from what we know to fill in gaps in the story or cannon) to what you "know" (this is the part called cannon, Duh!) though for you that wouldn't seem to be very much if your retort is that Sov bs.

They built a ship that was to be faster and more combat capable then the GCS, enter defiant.
The lakota took a draw from the battle with defiant. This would say to those with any sense that they are either equal or close to.
The defiant was ready and able to knock off bugs 3 or 4 at a time, yet never did we see it so happy to face a dominion BC.
This isn't hard to put together so i'm not sure why this slips past you so easily that you came out with a Sov vs the whole of the borg.

DarkOmen · Post by **DarkOmen** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:05 pm

sovereign > excelsior > all other federation ships

i'll post some pics later

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:05 pm

Deepcrush wrote:So now you're just trying to be a moron. Congrads, you've succeeded. With flying colors I would add.

Coming from someone who thinks because the Defiant was built to face the Borg it is stronger than the Galaxy Class. From that reasoning... Because something is built to face something doesn't make it more powerful than something else. It just means it's built to face something. The end.

I said add "theory" (an idea built from what we know to fill in gaps in the story or cannon) to what you "know" (this is the part called cannon, Duh!) though for you that wouldn't seem to be very much if your retort is that Sov bs.

You're adding theory into gaps that simply are too big. There is no cannon for theory to crystalise around - where is there anything even remotely describing a Galaxy/Lakota 'battle'?

They built a ship that was to be faster and more combat capable then the GCS, enter defiant.

The Galaxy class is faster than the Defiant.

The lakota took a draw from the battle with defiant. This would say to those with any sense that they are either equal or close to.

Maybe.

The defiant was ready and able to knock off bugs 3 or 4 at a time, yet never did we see it so happy to face a dominion BC.

Having absolutely no relevance what so ever...

This isn't hard to put together so i'm not sure why this slips past you so easily that you came out with a Sov vs the whole of the borg.

No, it really isn't hard to put together. You're adding theory to non-existant cannon. Because the Lakota may be equal to the Defiant, which may be equal to a Dominion Battlecruiser, which may or may not be equal to a Galaxy class ship, all proves that the Lakota would wipe the floor with a Galaxy...

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:20 pm

The defiant was built to apply force in a way in which it was to be better then any ship in the fleet at that time. Go watch ds9 season 2 again if you need more help. You are about as quick as a frenchman with this, I mean really!

Are you trying to just not think or does it come naturally for you? The defiant is "Applied Force" where the GCS is "Allowed Force". The GCS has more over all fire power but lacks the small fire arc in which to concentrate it. This is what makes the defiant so good for what she does. It isn't more powerful in terawatts but in over all use. You seem to be comparing a 20 pound cannon round from the 1812 war to a howitzer. It isn't just the size or payload but how and where it is used. This is what makes the defiant a more powerful ship, because it can pick a target and lay all of its power against that one spot.

P.S.
Some how I would think that the defiant would have a far better impulse then the GCS. Let me know if you can prove other wise or if you just want to cry some more.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:39 pm

Deep, me and Thorin agree about as often as Rochey and Teaos, but in this case he's absolutely right and you're being an idiot. We cannot determine whether ship A is superior to ship B purely by guesswork -there has to be evidence to base this guesswork on. In this case we can safely say that a Defiant and a Lakota-type Excelsior are roughly equal, given that had the "Paradise Lost" battle continued victory would have been a question of who fired first.

We do not, however, have any clear evidence of the capabilities of the Defiant relative to the Galaxy. The circumstantial evidence from "Valiant" suggests that the Galaxy is regarded as a benchmark for powerful ships. If it were noticably weaker than a Defiant, then Jake would not have used a comparison with it to emphasise the strength of the Dominion Battleship.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:53 pm

Welcome back Seafort, long time.

First off as I keep having to tell thorin, its not PURELY guesswork. I still don't understand why this is slipping past everyone? Its like being on a SW forum. You take cannon (facts as they are atleast) and add theory (try to use those facts to make a guess that fits the facts). Have you never made an educated guess in your life? The galaxy is also known far more, plus they may have just been reading it that way since the weapons on the galaxy class are better known. Again saying that because someone said the word galaxy in an episode is about as proven as thorin's Sov-Borg comment. I think you didn't read far enough back as I'm starting to think the same is true of thorin. Let me help those involed who are catching up.

"I said add "theory" (an idea built from what we know to fill in gaps in the story or cannon) to what you "know" (this is the part called cannon, Duh!) though for you that wouldn't seem to be very much if your retort is that Sov bs. "

This should have been made more clear or maybe I just need some neon lights on it. (see above)

"If a ship can win then it is more powerful. Maybe not in part but as a whole. The defiant was built to face the borg so we know it is stronger then the GCS. The lakota dueled and pared with the defiant. The dominion used its battle cruiser when ever dealing with the defiant but we never got to see them go at it. From this mix of cannon then add theory and you can deduce where those ships stand to one another."

This was meant to be takin in general without throwing to much detail and I thought that everyone would understand on their own. You have my apologies if I was mistaken to make that judgement. (see above)

If you have any questions or would like details please say to which part and we'll get into that. As for the rest you're just on your own.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:09 pm

The big problems I have are with these quotes:

Deepcrush wrote:The defiant was built to face the borg so we know it is stronger then the GCS.

Bollocks. More powerful per unit mass certainly, but we know that because of Sisko's statement that it's "overpowered and overgunned for a ship its size", not because of its intended opponents. The fact that the Galaxy was used as a yardstick to compare the Dominion Battleship to strongly implies it is the most powerful series-production ship the Federation has. What would be the point of describing any enemy battleship's power as "3 times as strong as a xyz-class heavy cruiser" when you've got battleships to compare it to?

The dominion used its battle cruiser when ever dealing with the defiant but we never got to see them go at it.

The Dominion deployed their battlecruisers as part of major fleets, not against individual ships. The only ships we've seen the Defiant fight one-on-one were the bugs.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:15 pm

Deepcrush wrote:The defiant was built to apply force in a way in which it was to be better then any ship in the fleet at that time. Go watch ds9 season 2 again if you need more help. You are about as quick as a frenchman with this, I mean really! Are you trying to just not think or does it come naturally for you? The defiant is "Applied Force" where the GCS is "Allowed Force". The GCS has more over all fire power but lacks the small fire arc in which to concentrate it. This is what makes the defiant so good for what she does. It isn't more powerful in terawatts but in over all use. You seem to be comparing a 20 pound cannon round from the 1812 war to a howitzer. It isn't just the size or payload but how and where it is used. This is what makes the defiant a more powerful ship, because it can pick a target and lay all of its power against that one spot.

P.S.
Some how I would think that the defiant would have a far better impulse then the GCS. Let me know if you can prove other wise or if you just want to cry some more.

Insults are always the way to go on a loosing side.
As I have said, which you seem to have not bothered reading - the Defiant has a far greater firepower:mass ratio. I have never disputed this fact and it is completely obvious. But you are claiming that even though you have just admitted the Galaxy class has more overall power, the Lakota (which roughly equals the Defiant) would be more powerful than the Galaxy, even though you have just said the Defiant is weaker than the Galaxy. Whether it is smaller is irrelevant. We are talking overall. Just because it has a higher firepower:mass ratio means nothing - "1% of something is better than 100% of nothing".

My Sov-Borg comment is virtually what you have done - just made a guess out of thin air. We cannot say that one is more powerful than the other. We can say one has more evidence, or something similar - but there isn't even that. We just don't know.

Adding theory (guesswork) to what we know (which is nothing) is useless. There is as much evidence for the Sov taking on the Borg collective as there is for the Lakota being more powerful than the Galaxy - zilch. Nothing. Zero. Nought. You claimed that the Lakota is more powerful than a Galaxy class ship (by some margin, I might add). To make such a claim, you need proof.

The fact you are unable to write correct English (if we're resorting to insults, now) and then to say we can't understand it is pretty ridiculous. You said that the Defiant is more powerful than the Galaxy class ship because it was designed to fight the Borg. Absolute rubish. You don't understand that at all.

Post by **Teaos** » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:21 pm

The defiant was built to face the borg so we know it is stronger then the GCS.

That statement makes no sense.

It was made to combat the Borg in the sense they needed a small ship they could make a lot of that had good fire power FOR ITS SIZE.

The Galaxys shields are just to strong for the defieant to win. It would take a good few minutes for them to make a hole in them and by that time the GCS type X phasers would have ripped the defiant apart.