Scimitar vs. Sovereign

[Thorin]

First five seconds: Two shots, TWO SHOTS! To knock out the warp drive, whats that Thorin? You say it would be going all out from the start because it would have no hope of damaging the ship while shields are still up gee this must be like the fasted smack down in history, less than 5 seconds to prove you wrong. They can obviously damage the E-E through the shields and since he needs Picard alive he wouldn't want to risk killing him.

...And it's inconceivable that ships at warp have less shields, or that the E-E intentionally didn't have full shields (perhaps diverting the power somewhere else)? And two shots? Considering a second later the shields were back up, it shows that the E-E quite easily didn't have any problem with those 15ish disrupter shots before the two torpedos came taking out the warp drive. Further, all hull impacts - and there were many of them, including a hit on the bridge [wtf] - did very little damage. Shinzon wasn't scared of hitting the hull - he wasn't even scared of hitting the hull surrounding the bridge. And you think he'd be scared of hitting the shields as hard as he could?

And for the final time - the battle we see on screen is not the entire battle, unless you're telling me that a Sovereign class starship has 9 quantum torpedos, and has less photon torpedos than an Intrepid class?

[Teaos]

...And it's inconceivable that ships at warp have less shields, or that the E-E intentionally didn't have full shields (perhaps diverting the power somewhere else)?

We saw it did infact have shields and we have never heard of shields being less powerful at warp thus we shouldnt assume they are.

Considering a second later the shields were back up, it shows that the E-E quite easily didn't have any problem with those 15ish disrupter shots before the two torpedos came taking out the warp drive.

Totally irrelivant. You say they will be going all out right until the end. These shots taking out the warp show that shots at full power can cause signifigant internal damage to the ship. This could injure/kill Picard, something they were trying to avoid.

Further, all hull impacts - and there were many of them, including a hit on the bridge [wtf] - did very little damage. Shinzon wasn't scared of hitting the hull - he wasn't even scared of hitting the hull surrounding the bridge. And you think he'd be scared of hitting the shields as hard as he could?

As I have pointed out and you have just pretty much agreed with me on is that Shinson wasnt going all out, watch the video and look at the weapons fire, he is obviously using the weaker secondary guns even when he is in the position (bridge shot) to use the bigger ones. If he was going all out explain that?

He is tapping away with his weaker guns so he can saftly capture the ship.

And for the final time - the battle we see on screen is not the entire battle, unless you're telling me that a Sovereign class starship has 9 quantum torpedos, and has less photon torpedos than an Intrepid class?

Yeah no shit, I mentioned at least twice in my last post that the video doesnt show the whole battle. The fact that we dont see the whole battle and we know there is more is more in my favour than yours.

We can assume the E-E scored a few more hits than we see which shows that the Scimitar is even stronger than we see. We can also assume the E-E got hit by the Scimitar more than we saw which given how powerful the Scimitars weapons can be shows that it must have been holding back.

[Thorin]

We saw it did infact have shields and we have never heard of shields being less powerful at warp thus we shouldnt assume they are.

The fact they were back up a second or two later means clearly that the shields weren't running at full at warp.

Totally irrelivant. You say they will be going all out right until the end. These shots taking out the warp show that shots at full power can cause signifigant internal damage to the ship. This could injure/kill Picard, something they were trying to avoid.

Your last sentence is completely ridiculous - he aimed for the bridge. He didn't care about hitting the hull, on the off chance the shields went down before they were meant to (as per taking out the warp, and a few others hitting the hull/bridge).

As I have pointed out and you have just pretty much agreed with me on is that Shinson wasnt going all out, watch the video and look at the weapons fire, he is obviously using the weaker secondary guns even when he is in the position (bridge shot) to use the bigger ones. If he was going all out explain that?

He uses torpedoes on the bridge. Yeah, really going softer using torpedos instead of disrupters...

Yeah no s**t, I mentioned at least twice in my last post that the video doesnt show the whole battle. The fact that we dont see the whole battle and we know there is more is more in my favour than yours.

No, it shows the Scimitar took longer than few minutes shown on screen to pretty much put the E-E's weapon systems out of use.

Shinzon showed he didn't care about hitting the E-E's hull at all. Why would he care about hitting the shields as hard as he could? The answer is - he didn't.

[KuvahMagh]

The Scimitar is a Yamato, huge, amazing, powerful on paper but abysmal in actual action. It is too big, overly complicated and built for a different role than it is used for. In this case it was designed to wipe out an entire planets population but it is put to work capturing their Flagship instead.

Shinzon needed to capture Picard quickly, before the Task Force wondered why the E-E was so late and decided to investigate, not to mention the fact that he needed his Blood or else he would die. The fact that he has to order full power to weapons part way through the Battle also suggests that they were not at full power prior to that point.

And the argument with Blackstar focused mainly on his belief that the Scimitar could be build in large numbers as an effective design IIRC.

[kostmayer]

This ridiculous Picard clone (who should have hair by the way, unless Picard went through a "wig phase" using continually thinner wigs.

Am currently rewatching a (very bad- though it does have Kelly Reilly in it) modern reworking of A for Andromeda. Aside from Miss Reilly, its got Thomas Hardy - aka Shinzon - with not only a full head of hair and a beard. He looks so different I didn't recognise him in Nemesis. I'd say he looks better bald.

[katefan]

The Scimitar is a Yamato, huge, amazing, powerful on paper but abysmal in actual action. It is too big, overly complicated and built for a different role than it is used for. In this case it was designed to wipe out an entire planets population but it is put to work capturing their Flagship instead.

Shinzon needed to capture Picard quickly, before the Task Force wondered why the E-E was so late and decided to investigate, not to mention the fact that he needed his Blood or else he would die. The fact that he has to order full power to weapons part way through the Battle also suggests that they were not at full power prior to that point.

And the argument with Blackstar focused mainly on his belief that the Scimitar could be build in large numbers as an effective design IIRC.

I like your analysis. The Scimitar was designed as a planet killer; sneak in with the perfect cloak, power up the weapon, de-cloak and unleash hell upon some poor, unsuspecting populace. I think, then, that when the Scimitar first appeared that it would have made more sense for Worf to be unable to get accurate readings regarding the ship's specs, perhaps a byproduct of the "perfect" cloaking system. That way there would have been far less confusion and debate regarding what the ship could and could not do. But I guess the writers/director wanted drama in that the Reman ship was so vastly more powerful than the Sovereign. :/

[Deepcrush]

I think thats a very kind and soft way of bypassing how the writers &*^@ed up a simple movie.

[katefan]

I think thats a very kind and soft way of bypassing how the writers &*^@ed up a simple movie.

Everyone involved in the project had their hand in messing this film up, from Spiner's inability to let the Data character go to the insistence that Picard be portrayed as an action hero, to Shizon's motivation being shaky at best, etc.

Like Take Me Out To The Holosuite, I am amazed that Graham graded this movie as highly as he did. Nothing about the movie appeals to me at all and judging by how I have largely agreed with him on a vast majority of his ratings I am surprised that we are so completely off on this movie and the DS9 ep.

[Teaos]

The fact they were back up a second or two later means clearly that the shields weren't running at full at warp.

No it means that when shields are hit with powerful shots that bleed through damage can happen and internal damage happens. Just like the dozens of times we see it happen on other ships when their shields get hit.

Your last sentence is completely ridiculous - he aimed for the bridge. He didn't care about hitting the hull, on the off chance the shields went down before they were meant to (as per taking out the warp, and a few others hitting the hull/bridge).

I never said he was rational, infact I said his tactics suck, but to be fair he did hit the bridge area (not the bridge) with his lower powered canon and not the powerful ones, and since he was head on he could have used them, clearly shows he is holding back.

He uses torpedoes on the bridge. Yeah, really going softer using torpedos instead of disrupters...

...uh, no. He uses he secondary disruptors not torpedoes.

No, it shows the Scimitar took longer than few minutes shown on screen to pretty much put the E-E's weapon systems out of use.

It shows that a ship that can knock out a new model Romulan war bird in 2-5 shots takes minutes and dozens of hits to bring down the E-E... almost like they are holding back or something.

zon showed he didn't care about hitting the E-E's hull at all. Why would he care about hitting the shields as hard as he could? The answer is - he didn't.

Have you even watched the video clip? He only uses his powerful guns in the opening salvo when he was in the position multiple times to use the big guns.

[Thorin]

Wow, go watch the video again. He uses torpedoes to take out the E-E's bridge. Not disrupters. Not only have we never heard of 'secondary disrupters', they are exactly the same as the projectiles used to hit the ventral hull of one of the Valdores.

[Teaos]

By secondry disruptors I ment the guns that arent those two great big ones out front retard, you know some of 52 disruptors it was mentioned to have.

THORIN WATCH THE F*****G VIDEO

1:34 look at the type of fire the Scimitar is using, its the "secondary disruptors" (if you need a reminder as to what I am refering to here read the start of my post again refering to your mental status), now these are obviously disruptor blasts and not torpedoes since they are fired on such a great angle, torpedoes cant change direstion that quickly right out of a tube, not only that but the rate of fire and the way its used clearly show it to be disruptor blasts. There is some more of this "secondary distruptor fire" around the two minute mark.

2:11: SECONDARY DISRUPTORS!!! hit the bridge area.

Not only proving you can't follow a simple video but that you are wrong about Shinzo holding back since that would have been a perfect oppertunity to use the big guns up front (not the secondary ones) and end the fight...

Now there is this handy button at the bottom of youtube clips that let you expand it to full screen, I suggest you use it and, you know, actually watch the fucking video before replying.

[Thorin]

The ones at the 1.34 mark are torpedoes, just like the ones that hit the E-E's bridge.

Besides the fact there is never any mention of '52 disrupters plus 104 secondary disrupters', Shinzon still orders hits on the bridge, which blew cleanly through the hull. Either way, Shinzon wasn't scared of holding back and hitting the hull at the risk of Picard killing (as shown by the fact Picard was nearly sucked into space, regardless of the weapon used - even though it was a torpedo).

[KuvahMagh]

I just watched the video and I would say you could make a case for both Disruptors or Torpedoes but I personally would call what we see firing when the Bridge is blown out Disruptors rather than torpedoes. No real reason, its just that's what they look like to me.

[Deepcrush]

What would help with this is a pic of Romulan torps from other battles. We could compare the two then decide which is which.

[KuvahMagh]

Either way though I don't think it makes a huge amount of difference in terms of how capable a design the Scimitar is. It was in the hands of a retard and thus it is impossible for us to tell just how good or bad a design it is. That is compounded by the real world budget issues associated with only have a few Disruptors fire when there are supposed to be 52.

I don't think the Scimitar would be effective against a large number of ships on its own but at the core of some type of Battle Group it could be very effective. Its shields proved to be a step up from the Sovereign at least and if its cloak remains impenetrable then it could seemingly control the entire engagement and still fight without being seen.

Of course to me this is overshadowed by the individual technology gains seen in the Scimitar. If this type of Shielding and Cloak System could be fitted to modern Warbirds or a similar next generation platform that could be widely deployed it could mean something much more significant than just the Scimitar design.