Sovereign class

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:00 pm

Starfleet is an exploratory organisation that acts only secondarily as a military. That does not divert what the main point of Starfleet is, only adding another one.
How can there be any doubt about this? Up until the Defiant, not one ship was built for war, whether or not other ships could actually stand up in a war is a completely irrelevant matter.

Maybe we should look at this from a different perspective. There is Starfleet (exploratory) and Starfleet (military). Starfleet (exploratory) only exists during peacetime. Starfleet (military) only exists during wartime.
What is wrong with having civilians on ships of Starfleet (exploratory)?

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:07 pm

Both fleets should be building at all times, never stopping! Oh, and the should be keeped apart, no mixing the fleets!

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:12 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Oh, and the should be keeped apart, no mixing the fleets!

I agree, but the point is that isn't what happened. So with what Starfleet actually is, I see no problem with civilians in a exploratory organisation, that at time has military functions.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:17 pm

The problem is that you can't expect your enemy to anounce when he's going to attack you, thus letting you get all non-combatants off the ship safely. If the Federation was the victim of a surprise attack, can you imagine how many civilians would be killed, even if the enemy only attacked military targets?

Starfleet ships are used in a military role, ergo they are military ships. Whatever missions they undertake in peacetime is irrelevent.
If a US nuclear submarine pulled up at the harbour of your city and said it had been out mapping the sea floor, would you conclude, despite its armament, that it was not a military vesel?

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:20 pm

Thorin wrote:Starfleet is an exploratory organisation that acts only secondarily as a military. That does not divert what the main point of Starfleet is, only adding another one.
How can there be any doubt about this? Up until the Defiant, not one ship was built for war, whether or not other ships could actually stand up in a war is a completely irrelevant matter.

Maybe we should look at this from a different perspective. There is Starfleet (exploratory) and Starfleet (military). Starfleet (exploratory) only exists during peacetime. Starfleet (military) only exists during wartime.
What is wrong with having civilians on ships of Starfleet (exploratory)?

Too risky. Like it or not, Starfleet's primary role is military, as when the Federation is threatened they drop what they're doing a fight to defend it. When their military role is not needed, they provide support for exploration and scientific missions, but those roles are scondary to their primary, defensive, role. Given how often military situations crop up, often without time to stop at a starbase to off-load their civilian personnel, Starfleet's warships should not carry any civilian personnel. If they want an exploration force, build explorers - but don't give them so much firepower that they become battleships.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:22 pm

no no, build them as battleships, build the m as you would any other ship but its crew is what makes it.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:24 pm

Deepcrush wrote:no no, build them as battleships, build the m as you would any other ship but its crew is what makes it.

If you build them as battleships they'll get used as battleships, which means there shouldn't be civilians on board, so you're right back to square one.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:26 pm

Weapons don't make a ship, its who is running it. Besides if they are crew by doctors and labcoats the battleship or not they are going to run away!

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:27 pm

Rochey wrote:The problem is that you can't expect your enemy to anounce when he's going to attack you, thus letting you get all non-combatants off the ship safely. If the Federation was the victim of a surprise attack, can you imagine how many civilians would be killed, even if the enemy only attacked military targets?

That's the same for anything, though. There are thousands of people on starbases, on them huge ones probably upwards of a million. Nearly all of those will be civilians, if that was attacked it would just be the same. It's the same with anything, even today. If an enemy launches a surprise attack then civilians will die.

If a US nuclear submarine pulled up at the harbour of your city and said it had been out mapping the sea floor, would you conclude, despite its armament, that it was not a military vesel?

A better question; if you put a gun on a comercial boeing 737, does that make it a warplane? It can be shot down by Iranian fighter jets at any point, but does that mean the airlines should stop letting passengers/civilians onboard?

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:28 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:no no, build them as battleships, build the m as you would any other ship but its crew is what makes it.
If you build them as battleships they'll get used as battleships, which means there shouldn't be civilians on board, so you're right back to square one.

So you'd withhold on the weapons just so it wouldn't be called away to a battle, at the expense of being easily destroyed in a surprise attack?

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:35 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Weapons don't make a ship, its who is running it. Besides if they are crew by doctors and labcoats the battleship or not they are going to run away!

If they're going to run away what's the point of arming the thing? If the ship is armed like a battleship, regardless of how well designed it is or what the crew are trained for it will end up being used like a battleship.

There was a similar situation during the world wars, when the Royal Navy tried to beef up the fleet by commandeering passenger liners, sticking a few obsolete guns on them and using them as cruisers. Predictably, whenever they ran into a real warship they got shredded.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:37 pm

Thorin wrote:
Captain Seafort wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:no no, build them as battleships, build the m as you would any other ship but its crew is what makes it.
If you build them as battleships they'll get used as battleships, which means there shouldn't be civilians on board, so you're right back to square one.
So you'd withhold on the weapons just so it wouldn't be called away to a battle, at the expense of being easily destroyed in a surprise attack?

I'd not arm it because it isn't a bloody warship! If there's a risk of it being attacked, be that because it's in unexplored space or near a hostile power, then either don't send it or give it an escort.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:40 pm

But why not arm it? On a matter of principle?

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:46 pm

That's the same for anything, though. There are thousands of people on starbases, on them huge ones probably upwards of a million. Nearly all of those will be civilians, if that was attacked it would just be the same. It's the same with anything, even today. If an enemy launches a surprise attack then civilians will die.

And how is having civilians killed in colateral damage the same as putting civilians on warships?

A better question; if you put a gun on a comercial boeing 737, does that make it a warplane? It can be shot down by Iranian fighter jets at any point, but does that mean the airlines should stop letting passengers/civilians onboard?

If this plane was then equiped with military grade equipment and sent into a warzone to strike enemy positions, then yes.

But why not arm it? On a matter of principle?

Because it is a civilian vesel. It should maybe have some low powered weapons for defense, but not enough to be considered a threat to a military force, because then your enemy may go after it.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:47 pm

Thorin wrote:But why not arm it? On a matter of principle?

What principle? It's a civilian ship - arming it would only give a hostile an excuse to attack it. While I don't see the Cardies paying much more than lip service to noncombattant immunity, the Romulans or the Klingons would probably either ignore it or take it as a prize rather than blowing it apart. But we're getting off-topic (surprise, surprise) from the question of why the Galaxy is a fundamentally stupid concept, to how Starfleet would be set up if its designers and top-brass weren't all a bunch of brain-doners.