Quality vs Quantity

[Aaron]

The list of things that I find wrong with TOS is to long to write.

I do find it odd that in the other threads people have said the big ships are useless but no ones saying that now.

If we follow the trends in modern naval warfare the tendency is is for vessels to become bigger and more generalist in nature as time progresses. We see the same progression in Trek.

[Sionnach Glic]

The list of things that I find wrong with TOS is to long to write.

I take it you do not like the more militarised Stafleet?

I do find it odd that in the other threads people have said the big ships are useless but no ones saying that now.

I don't recall anyone saying such things. I know I commonly say that X ship is useless, but bigger is better in this case.

[Monroe]

Director of the second Star Trek movie said that Starfleet is like the Coast Guard. Which I think is a perfect analogy. Him and Gene got into a lot of arguments about it but I'm glad the director won. Which is probably why you don't see as many pajamas and a more military approach from there on out.

I posted in another thread like 22 types of ships Starfleet would need to be effective off the top of my head. If I were to design a sci-fi military I would have an unique type of ship for these 22 plus the other 10 or so I probably missed and screw it with the weird combo ships. If you're going to make a science ship make a science ship, if not then make a military one!

I think for a good squadron you need like 8 massive ships that's job is to lay down considerable firepower. Then you have 15-20 corvette sized ships that's job is to hit harder to hit areas of the enemy ship and act as a moble force kind of like calvary. Then you have thousands, yes, thousands of cheap, easily produced one man or no man fighters. These things need only a phaser, you've got thousands remember. With this you'd have plenty of overlapping fire positions and if used properly should do very well against an even larger fleet.
But the federation would never have 20 of these fleets scattered around patrolling their boarders.

[Graham Kennedy]

The obvious answer is that there's going to be some optimum trade off between numbers of hulls and the capability of those hulls. It's too simple to say "small ships are better" - if that blanket statement were true, then the ideal Starfleet would consist of 250,000 Danube class Runabouts. But that would be next to useless, like the US Navy fielding a vast fleet of guys in rowboats carrying pistols.

On the other hand bigger ships are more powerful... but you wouldn't scrap the whole of Starfleet to build one five mile long super-dreadnought. Yeah it might kick the crap out of a whole fleet... but while it's off wiping off one Romulan fleet, what do you do about the others that are rampaging across your space towards Earth?

Any sensible fleet needs a core of powerful ships, and a larger number of smaller, less capable vessels.

Actually this is one thing that bugs me a little about Trek ships; the larger ones don't seem to have too many capabilities that the small ones lack. Compare the Sovereign to the Intrepid... The Sovereign has the exact same systems in every respect, just that they are more powerful or sophisticated versions, or it has more of them. I wish there was some fundamental difference between larger and smaller ships.

[Captain Seafort]

Actually this is one thing that bugs me a little about Trek ships; the larger ones don't seem to have too many capabilities that the small ones lack. Compare the Sovereign to the Intrepid... The Sovereign has the exact same systems in every respect, just that they are more powerful or sophisticated versions, or it has more of them. I wish there was some fundamental difference between larger and smaller ships.

What's wrong with that? Compare the 5-inch guns of a WW2 US destroyer with the 16-inch guns of an Iowa class battleship and they're basically the same design, one's simply a bit bigger.

[Teaos]

I cant honestly think of anything to put on larger ships that cant go on small ones. Super torpedoes that are 10m wide? sure you could but its probably not worth it. Bigger usually just means better not different weapons.

[kostmayer]

I'd suggest the only reason a ship would need to be bigger was to increase its ability to perform long missions without resupply or refit.

I have to wonder if the ships need to be so big even then. There doesn't seem to be much on board that can't be replicated. And the quarters on a Galaxy class ship are way too big.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'd suggest the only reason a ship would need to be bigger was to increase its ability to perform long missions without resupply or refit.

And to fit in more weapons and amunition. And, probably, to increase shield power.

I have to wonder if the ships need to be so big even then.

No, they don't. The problem is that Starfleet wants to be a military, but fails horribly.

There doesn't seem to be much on board that can't be replicated.

Actually we've seen that many things can't be replicated.

And the quarters on a Galaxy class ship are way too big.

Agreed, its a warship, not a hotel.

[Teaos]

And to fit in more weapons and amunition. And, probably, to increase shield power.

More powerful weapons to. The bigger something is the more power it has to throw around.

No, they don't. The problem is that Starfleet wants to be a military, but fails horribly.

It doesn't fail. It has beaten everything thrown at it and won. It has done a amazing job. Call it bad writing if you want but in canon Starfleet kicks ass.

Agreed, its a warship, not a hotel.

It is the Flag ship of the fleet. The crew need to be comfortable and happy. It also needs to project a good face when hosting politcal summits which it does often.

[Sionnach Glic]

It doesn't fail. It has beaten everything thrown at it and won. It has done a amazing job. Call it bad writing if you want but in canon Starfleet kicks ass.

Shear dumb luck. How many times have we seen massive catastrophy or disaster prevented by Enterprise being in the vicinity?
Didn't the Dominion only back off because of the plague Section 31 created? Weren't they losing for most of the war? Didn't they need the klingons to survive? Weren't they rather desperate to get the romulans on their side?
The only reason for them beating the borg was because the borg are even more incompetant than Starfleet.

I have yet to see Starfleet win a war in a way that dosen't involve Deus ex machina or having a technological advantage.

It is the Flag ship of the fleet. The crew need to be comfortable and happy.

So? Modern flagships aren't designed like hotels and the crews are just fine.

It also needs to project a good face when hosting politcal summits which it does often.

Which should be a job for civilians, not the military.
Hmm, that just led me to think, how much of a hold does the military have on the government if warships and their commanders are given full reign over diplomatic talks.


Anyway, if you removed all that wasted space you could have a much more compact ship with no power loss. Or, you could fill that extra space with usefull things such as extra ammo and power generators.

[Teaos]

Of coarse we needed help with the Dominion they out numbered Starfleet by sh*t loads.

But we put up a damn good fight for what we did have. We had better people better tactics and ships that could go toe to toe with the best the enemy had and win.

I'll also point out that Starfleet is one of only 2 species to ever soundly win against the Borg the other being 8472. You may call the Borg incompetent but in canon they rule a large chunk of the universe and no one seems to be able to stop them.

[Thorin]

The galaxy class was not a warship, even the uprated one. It was designed in mind to be an explorer and to carry civilians.
Starfleet is the executive branch of the Federation, you must remember. They are explorers, not solely military ships.

[Sionnach Glic]

But we put up a damn good fight for what we did have. We had better people better tactics and ships that could go toe to toe with the best the enemy had and win.

Yes, we had a technological parity and help from two other races. How does that dispute my point that Starfleet has no idea what its doing?

I'll also point out that Starfleet is one of only 2 species to ever soundly win against the Borg the other being 8472. You may call the Borg incompetent but in canon they rule a large chunk of the universe and no one seems to be able to stop them.

They couldn't figure out that sending more than one cube at a time would let them win. They are incompetant. They just have good weapons.

The galaxy class was not a warship, even the uprated one. It was designed in mind to be an explorer and to carry civilians.

And yet it is consistantly called upon to act in a military role, to defend planets, to track down and destroy alien warships, to guard places. Regardless of what Starfleet think, it is a military ship.

Starfleet is the executive branch of the Federation, you must remember. They are explorers, not solely military ships.

And yet these 'explorers' are always the first to be called up to a war. Stange...

[Teaos]

In universe Starfleet are the best. We cant compare them to us only to those around them. Compared to all the other powers Starfleet repeatedly comes out on top.

As for the Borg maybe they have never needed to send more than one Cube at a time in the past. They have only attacked twice using a tactic that has worked well for them in the past.

[Captain Seafort]

The main reason the Federation has survived against the Borg is their distance from them. The El-Aurians were destroyed when the Borg "swarmed through [their] system" - one cube doesn't constitute a swarm. Arturis' species were holding off the Borg fine (albeit during the 8472 war) - that doesn't indictate their being overrun by a single cube. The species in Dark Frontier were attacked by three cubes and a diamond and were doing alright untill SEven came up with a defence against their weapons. The two isolated encounters the Federation has had were both stopped by dumb luck - the first because Borg computer security is non-existent, the second because of Picard's residual link to the collective.