YOU are involved in the events of INS

[Mikey]

Does anyone recall if the worlds involved in TOS: "The Cloud Minders" or "Mirror, Mirror," or Ligon in TNG, were in UFP space? If so, there's your precedent - the UFP attempted to negotiate for what they wanted, rather than just claim they owned it.

But I'm with GK on this - without a clear definition of the legality of the action, I can't conceive of the same organization that wrote the PD then turning and claiming that Dougherty's position was OK. And Seafort - we've enver seen the UFP before or since exhibit anything like an eminent domain policy.

[Captain Seafort]

Clearly the Bak'u are not Federation citizens. Is there any reason why they would be subject to Federation law?

Dougherty states that "we have the planet", and Picard describes the place as "a planet in Federation space". Nobody seems to question that the Feds have jurisdiction over the place - the argument is over whether the non-violent removal of 600 individuals is too high a price to pay for an improved quality of life for billions.

My best take on it is that the Council or some fraction of it was involved in a criminal conspiracy, but either way you cut it has problematical implications.

My impression is either that Dougherty was lying when he stated that he had the council's approval, or the operation was sanctioned by the Cabinet and Riker's mission was to inform Parliament (or whatever the Fed equivalent was). Not illegal, but something the population as a whole would be uncomfortable with, a la the invasion of Iraq.

I don't really see that the ease of the assault has anything to do with it.

It has everything to do with it - if an assault is needed to obtain a given resource, then it will cost lives, on both sides. Dougherty's plan wouldn't cost any, and and would allow the Ba'ku to live out the rest of their natural lives on a reproduced colony.

Again, a series of differences that make no difference to my mind.

If that's the case then every compulsory purchase order is morally equivalent to the Trail of Tears.

The Bak'u were established on the planet - they'd been there for centuries. Viable? They had enough of a population to continue indefinitely, especially given that they have an almost indefinite lifespan.

Only barely - even assuming the optimum genetic dispersal, the minimum viable population for humans is about 500, and safer estimate put it in the thousands.

I don't really see what "effective control" has to do with anything. Interstellar capability makes a difference in the degree to which the PD applies to be sure, but it continues to apply after that is achieved.

I'm not talking about the PD - I'm talking about the fact that this is a single, small, imported village we're talking about, not a planetwide civilisation.

And true they didn't intend to enslave them - I didn't say they did. I said they intended to kidnap them, which is the truth.

So? You compared the Ba'ku relocation to the antics of the Cardassians - I'm pointing out that they're nowhere near comparable.

As to the degree of disruption which may or may not occur, again I don't really see the relevance, but at the very least what the Federation planned would rob the Bak'u of centuries of expected lifespan, per person.

At worse the Ba'ku might have gone into shock when removed from the effective limit of the radiation, which is unlikely given that the Son'a were still around a century after leaving (suggesting that either the radiation has a lasting, though not permanent, effect after prolonged expose, or the Ba'ku are naturally long-lived), and may be a reason for the extensive research being done prior to the relocation. It's far more likely that they'd simply have lived out their natural lives, which I fail to see as a bad thing, especially given the vast immprovements in medical science it was firmly expected the harvesting and exploitation of the rings would bring for billions of Federation citizens. Immortality, as attractive as it may initially appear, is unnatural and stifling - Tolkein had a good point when he named the "Gift of Man".

[Mikey]

Judging by the high value the E-E crew placed on informing the UFP at large of what Dougherty and the Son'a were trying to do, I'd say that the legality as well as the morality of it were very much in question. "A planet in Federation space" and "We have the planet" are importantly distinctive - the former is very careful to name the location without claiming sovereignty. In addition, "we have the planet" could very easily refer to the ease with which the planet could be taken, or the fact that the Son'a were in strategic position to effect the kidnapping.

[Captain Seafort]

Does anyone recall if the worlds involved in TOS: "The Cloud Minders" or "Mirror, Mirror," or Ligon in TNG, were in UFP space? If so, there's your precedent - the UFP attempted to negotiate for what they wanted, rather than just claim they owned it.

Those (or rather the "Mirror, Mirror" and Ligon II examples) were what I was using - they had the capacity to resist the Feds, and therefore cause casualties on both sides. The Ba'ku did not. The distinct impression I got in these cases were that they were outside UFP space.

But I'm with GK on this - without a clear definition of the legality of the action, I can't conceive of the same organization that wrote the PD then turning and claiming that Dougherty's position was OK.

The legality of the Ba'ku relocation is, I believe, something of a side issue, relevant only with regards to Picard's actions. The morality of Dougherty's actions (and immorality of Picard's and the Ba'ku's) is far clearer).

And Seafort - we've enver seen the UFP before or since exhibit anything like an eminent domain policy.

We've never seen the Federation's actions when confronted with an all but unpopulated planet with massive potential for medical advancement either.

"A planet in Federation space" and "We have the planet" are importantly distinctive - the former is very careful to name the location without claiming sovereignty.

Given the context of the discussion, Picard was claiming sovereignty.

DOUGHERTY
The Son'a have developed a
procedure to collect the
metaphasic particles form the
planets rings...

PICARD
A planet in Federation space...

DOUGHERTY
Right. We have the planet and
they have the technology -- a
technology we can't duplicate.

He realised that the Son'a didn't have any similar planets of their own to harvest, and so they needed the Feds to allow the use of one of theirs - regardless of the Ba'ku settlement.

In addition, "we have the planet" could very easily refer to the ease with which the planet could be taken, or the fact that the Son'a were in strategic position to effect the kidnapping.

Dougherty's full statement was "We [the Federation] have the planet, they [the Son'a] have the technology". He was clearly talking about possesion, especially given the fact that, with the arrival of the E-E, there were far more Federation citizens in the system than Ba'ku.

[Tsukiyumi]

Question: did they ever state whether the rings would return at some point? If just being on the planet can heal sick people, or prolong life, etc. I'd say permanently destroying the rings for a one-time mass treatment would be somewhat short-sighted.

[Captain Seafort]

The impression that was given was that harvesting the rings would allow the Federation to develop a new form of medical science, possibly based on replicating whatever material was the radiation source. It was never suggest that it was simply a one-shot.

[Tsukiyumi]

The impression that was given was that harvesting the rings would allow the Federation to develop a new form of medical science, possibly based on replicating whatever material was the radiation source. It was never suggest that it was simply a one-shot.

And, it was never suggested that it wasn't. It would've been nice to have that point clarified in the film.

If they could come up with a way to at least partially duplicate the effects, then I'd support harvesting the rings.

[Captain Seafort]

That's the impression given:

DOUGHERTY
With metaphasics, lifespans will
be doubled... an entire new
medical science will evolve...

The evolution of a new medical science seems to be a distinctly long-term advantage, not a temporary boost to a few of the elite.

[Tsukiyumi]

Ah, I forgot that line.

In that case, I'd be behind the plan 100%.

[Graham Kennedy]

Does anyone recall if the worlds involved in TOS: "The Cloud Minders" or "Mirror, Mirror," or Ligon in TNG, were in UFP space? If so, there's your precedent - the UFP attempted to negotiate for what they wanted, rather than just claim they owned it.

But I'm with GK on this - without a clear definition of the legality of the action, I can't conceive of the same organization that wrote the PD then turning and claiming that Dougherty's position was OK. And Seafort - we've enver seen the UFP before or since exhibit anything like an eminent domain policy.

I know in The Cloud Minders the planet was a full Federation member and this was explicitly stated. Kirk literally says "Ardana is a member of the Federation. And it is your council's responsibility that nothing interferes with its obligation to another member of the Federation."

And yet later the government guy says "Your Federation orders do not entitle you to defy local governments!"

Spock later adds "If you are apprehended deliberately violating the high advisor's orders, he will be within his rights to have you executed, if he chooses."

If the Federation can't walk over the rights of even one of their own member worlds, can we really accept that they can secretly abduct the entire population of an alien world just because it happened to lie within their borders?

[Aaron]

If the Federation can't walk over the rights of even one of their own member worlds, can we really accept that they can secretly abduct the entire population of an alien world just because it happened to lie within their borders?

Why not? With a Federation member there would be various legal means to challenge the actions, what are the Baku going to do?

[Graham Kennedy]

If the Federation can't walk over the rights of even one of their own member worlds, can we really accept that they can secretly abduct the entire population of an alien world just because it happened to lie within their borders?

Why not? With a Federation member there would be various legal means to challenge the actions, what are the Baku going to do?

So because the Bak'u are helpless to challenge it, then it becomes legal?

They would be equally helpless to challenge it if the Federation simply used a photon torpedo to destroy the village. Is that therefore legal as well?

[Captain Seafort]

They would be equally helpless to challenge it if the Federation simply used a photon torpedo to destroy the village. Is that therefore legal as well?

Given the events of "Pen Pals" and "Homeward", it probably would be, in order to prevent the far worse disaster of cultural contamination.

[Graham Kennedy]

They would be equally helpless to challenge it if the Federation simply used a photon torpedo to destroy the village. Is that therefore legal as well?

Given the events of "Pen Pals" and "Homeward", it probably would be, in order to prevent the far worse disaster of cultural contamination.

Since neither episode involved the murder of the natives I don't see how it's applicable.

[Aaron]

So because the Bak'u are helpless to challenge it, then it becomes legal?

They would be equally helpless to challenge it if the Federation simply used a photon torpedo to destroy the village. Is that therefore legal as well?

No and in fact I said jack and shit about it's legality. I'm saying they have the means and obviously the will to do it, remember that saying "better to beg forgiveness then ask permission"?