Was B-4 treated unethically?

Grundig · Post by **Grundig** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:58 am

I keep thinking about Data's decision in Nemesis to upload all of his memories into B-4's positronic net... It doesn't seem like it would match Data's code of ethics, or the general ethics of the Federation. Sure I can understand the motivation behind giving B-4 a shot at higher mental capability. B-4 may have been a simple-minded (malfunctioning?) android, but I feel like the Data in the series would have defended B-4's right to progress as he desired. Taking our cue from the movie's makers, we can think of B-4 as a developmentally challenged adult. What do you all think?

Jordanis · Post by **Jordanis** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:39 pm

That's an interesting thought. It didn't really occur to me at the time (and I haven't watched Nemesis since), but B4 wasn't a blank slate.

I suppose he wouldn't have overwritten what B4 already knew, just appended Data's own memories. I'm not voting, because this really depends on exactly how Data went about this.

Reliant121 · Post by **Reliant121** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:59 pm

Well if he doesn't understand what he could do to progress it is only right that he is manipulated to learn. Is that not what parents and schools do?

Jordanis · Post by **Jordanis** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:03 pm

Reliant121 wrote:Well if he doesn't understand what he could do to progress it is only right that he is manipulated to learn. Is that not what parents and schools do?

I suppose you could say that, but the fact that Data messes around inside B4's head is bound to make people a little uncomfortable. You have to wonder how the line should be drawn, and what is different for androids.

Soong androids apparently have a learning algorithm of some sort built in. It uses their experiences to improve on its programming. That's the 'I am programmed to better myself' business. Presumably, B4 has some version of this programming.

So yeah, you could send him to school. He'd process a bunch of experiences through that programming and learn from them. I can just see an android deciding that's inefficient, however, when there's another way: Data just dumps a whole bunch of memories into B4 for B4's programming to chew through and learn from at maximum possible speed.

So I guess that's my theory of what Data did. If that's the case, then I don't think it was unethical.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:46 pm

Jordanis wrote:Soong androids apparently have a learning algorithm of some sort built in. It uses their experiences to improve on its programming. That's the 'I am programmed to better myself' business. Presumably, B4 has some version of this programming.

Actually, that was the point - B4 didn't have this self-improvement 'program' which is why Data uploaded his. While Data arguably has sentience, B4 did not - thus he was literally a computer. If you added 2GB of RAM to your computer, is that being unethical to your computer?

Jordanis · Post by **Jordanis** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:07 pm

Thorin wrote:
Jordanis wrote:Soong androids apparently have a learning algorithm of some sort built in. It uses their experiences to improve on its programming. That's the 'I am programmed to better myself' business. Presumably, B4 has some version of this programming.
Actually, that was the point - B4 didn't have this self-improvement 'program' which is why Data uploaded his. While Data arguably has sentience, B4 did not - thus he was literally a computer. If you added 2GB of RAM to your computer, is that being unethical to your computer?

Ahhh, hmm. See, like I said, I haven't watched Nemesis since I saw it in theatres, so I forget these things. If B4 was missing that, then we're looking at an uplift scenario, and it's really, really not ethically problematic.

Blackstar the Chakat · Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:18 pm

I'm not sure but in my opinion B4 wasn't given a much of a choice. I feel it was a tad unethical and was totally cheating B4's chance to become an individual. It was Borg-like for Data to transfer all of his memories. It was also selfish because it was kind of like Data created a back-up too. At least that's the impression I got from the last scene with B4, remembering that song.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:20 pm

The impression I got wasn't so much imprinting Data's personality onto B-4, but showing him what Data had done and achieved, in the hope of kick-starting any dormant programming. It failed, but it was worth a shot.

Grundig · Post by **Grundig** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:27 pm

I thought they copied everything over, and there was a short discussion of whether or not Data would remain a unique individual.

At any rate, I feel like they should have tried to repair whatever mechanical or programming problem that kept B-4 from learning. That's what a doctor would try to do for a developmentally challenged person IRL. But it's possible that Geordi and Data couldn't take this approach for whatever reason - if that's the case, I would have liked a line of dialogue to address it. Perhaps the only course of action they could take was what was done in the movie.

As the movie stands, B-4 is just a plot device so the writers could have the impact of killing Data without the remorse of losing him...

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:22 pm

As the movie stands, B-4 is just a plot device so the writers could have the impact of killing Data without the remorse of losing him...

I hated that. I felt it really cheapened his death.

Grundig · Post by **Grundig** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:52 pm

Me too. It really felt like a rehash of Wrath of Khan in alot of ways... But I can't put my finger on why it was so insulting in Nemesis whereas it was really heartwrenching and appropriate in TWOK. They even had the battle in the nebula!

Blackstar the Chakat · Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:56 pm

schizo-hal wrote:Me too. It really felt like a rehash of Wrath of Khan in alot of ways... But I can't put my finger on why it was so insulting in Nemesis whereas it was really heartwrenching and appropriate in TWOK. They even had the battle in the nebula!

Well, because it's pretty easy to figure out that Data will live on in B4 somehow long before the end of the movie, whereas we thought Spock was dead for good.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:08 pm

That's pretty much it, yeah.

Also, Khan was a good villain. Shinzon......the less said, the better.

Jordanis · Post by **Jordanis** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:50 pm

Rochey wrote:That's pretty much it, yeah.

Also, Khan was a good villain. Shinzon......the less said, the better.

You know, they were comparing him to Khan in the lead-up to the release. Talking about how they were going to give us a villain as good. *sigh*

Blackstar the Chakat · Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:22 am

Nemesis was a rehashed Wrath of Khan, with a worse story and a less dramatic battle. I'm not sure if that makes the battle worse by default, it did have it's moments, but the STII battle did have more at stake then one man's life. Well, Shinzon was also going to destroy earth but, that didn't really have the impact that it should've. It felt like that was added so that Picard wasn't risking his ship and crew just to save his own hide. I guess it just feels like there were (plot)holes in the hull(script) that were patched up with cheap wood(poor writing).