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Funny new review from redlettermedia:)

http://www.redlettermedia.com/

He rules.

He does. He also said something I said for a while, Trek XI was the only kind of Trek movie that had a chance of ever seeing light. I dunno if I completely agree about the story not being not that important in this kind of movie. I can see the point that you're really just getting everyone together and established but at the same time this story felt really phoned in.

More backstory on Nero and the Narada, and I think it would've been near perfect.

A better motivation storyline for the Romulans would have been neat, but this story wasn't about the villains, it was about the main character.

While I initially disliked his comment about "what made Star Trek go downhill"; the Dominion War, I.. can't 100% disagree. It's true; once you've had the uber-epic war, what's left to show?

I mean, TNG have had massive fleet movements, right? Remember the mighty 40 ships in Best of Both Worlds? Or the 30 starship Picard assembled and commanded in Redemption?

Oh.. wait. Yhea, Sisko pretty much single-handely commanded the very most largest Federation task force to ever see the day (600!). And he led them right into defeat, if it hadn't been for Worf and Martok saving the day.

TNG didn't have it's fleet moments. BOBW only talked about a large number of ships. When we saw them we only saw less than 10 ships worth of wreckage. It's something to talk about a fleet movement without showing it. It's just academic. It's an entirely different thing to actually show hundreds of ships actively engaged in combat.

Tyyr wrote:TNG didn't have it's fleet moments. BOBW only talked about a large number of ships. When we saw them we only saw less than 10 ships worth of wreckage. It's something to talk about a fleet movement without showing it. It's just academic. It's an entirely different thing to actually show hundreds of ships actively engaged in combat.

Good point. DS9 was more about "show epic" rather than "tell epic".

I think there is something to be said about big budget. Luckily for everyone, they had awesome writers.

SolkaTruesilver wrote: While I initially disliked his comment about "what made Star Trek go downhill"; the Dominion War, I.. can't 100% disagree. It's true; once you've had the uber-epic war, what's left to show?

Altough I kind of agree with him there, I also agree with him that the producers urgently need to realize that they did not NEED to outdo the previous movies in terms of stuff which gets blown up.

I like action movies (altough I hate shacky cameras) but those aren't the only movies I watch and Star Trek IV showed that it isn't really necessary to spend most of your budget on special effects, just hire one or two competent writers/directors more and thats also ok.

So yes, the dominion war showed us pretty much everything there is to see concerning star trek space battles....well, then it is time for a while to use space battles only moderatly and only if the story really needs them, not just for the sake of it. Plenty of other things to show us imho, don't blow things up spectacularily but use the money to show really alien worlds and a set not looking so much like a brewery imho.

(On a side note, I also agree with him about TMP being one of his favorite movies. I have to say that the retouched version of the film really, really helps the movie and is far superior to the original. The special edition version made it one of my favourites as well and easily superior to most of the TNG stuff)

SolkaTruesilver wrote:Oh.. wait. Yhea, Sisko pretty much single-handely commanded the very most largest Federation task force to ever see the day (600!). And he led them right into defeat, if it hadn't been for Worf and Martok saving the day.

You do know that the final fleet didn't arrive, right, and they were outnumbered two to one right? And the Battle of Cardassia had an even larger Starfleet fleet.

Sisko's fleet wasn't even that big, at least by implication. It was composed of "elements" of two other fleets; elements of a third were due to come along but they didn't have time. The implication is that a full fleet is considerably larger than 600 ships.

Though to be honest I would think that fleet sizes vary wildly, according to what the fleet is used for. The ninth fleet may be involved in anti-piracy duties in some unimportant backwater, and consist of 50 tired old Miranda class ships. The First fleet may be responsible for defence on the Romulan border, and thus have 2,000 state of the art ships on hand.

GrahamKennedy wrote: Though to be honest I would think that fleet sizes vary wildly, according to what the fleet is used for. The ninth fleet may be involved in anti-piracy duties in some unimportant backwater, and consist of 50 tired old Miranda class ships. The First fleet may be responsible for defence on the Romulan border, and thus have 2,000 state of the art ships on hand.

You would think fleets might have been re-organized by that time though. A fleet of 50 old Miranda classes for example wouldn't do much good so it would seem logical to distribute them into larger fleets. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to use peacetime fleet formations in war-time, especially given that Starfleets idea of a fleet in peacetime is about 30 or 40 out of date ships.

GrahamKennedy wrote:Sisko's fleet wasn't even that big, at least by implication. It was composed of "elements" of two other fleets; elements of a third were due to come along but they didn't have time. The implication is that a full fleet is considerably larger than 600 ships.

For some reason, I always interpreted "Elements of" to mean "Remains of." I know there's nothing to specify it so it's probably not the case, but did anyone else ever get that vibe?

SuperSaiyaMan12 wrote: You do know that the final fleet didn't arrive, right, and they were outnumbered two to one right? And the Battle of Cardassia had an even larger Starfleet fleet.

Yhea, I know. The final fleet and the Klingons. But would the Dominion had fielded an ever larger fleet herself?

Sisko effectively made Starfleet bet on one big battle. I really wonder, seeing Dukat's tactical capacity, if he would still have won that battle if not for the Klingon's surprise attack.

Sonic Glitch wrote:

GrahamKennedy wrote:Sisko's fleet wasn't even that big, at least by implication. It was composed of "elements" of two other fleets; elements of a third were due to come along but they didn't have time. The implication is that a full fleet is considerably larger than 600 ships.

For some reason, I always interpreted "Elements of" to mean "Remains of." I know there's nothing to specify it so it's probably not the case, but did anyone else ever get that vibe?

My impression was they were moving elements of those fleets and leaving enough in place to hold the line during 1 big push on DS9. I presume there was some sort of task force structure or wing structure that allows for the easy breakdown of fleets.

SolkaTruesilver wrote:

SuperSaiyaMan12 wrote: You do know that the final fleet didn't arrive, right, and they were outnumbered two to one right? And the Battle of Cardassia had an even larger Starfleet fleet.

Yhea, I know. The final fleet and the Klingons. But would the Dominion had fielded an ever larger fleet herself?

Sisko effectively made Starfleet bet on one big battle. I really wonder, seeing Dukat's tactical capacity, if he would still have won that battle if not for the Klingon's surprise attack.

Dukat's tactical ability? Dukat managed that battle in the only way that could possibly have allowed him to lose. He had overwhelming force that had he not futzed around with the issue should have allowed him to crush the Federation fleet before any help could have arrived. Instead he played silly little games and let Sisko control the pace of the battle and fight it in the manner of his choosing. That allowed the possibility that more ships could show up and tip the balance of forces against him.

When you have a 2 to 1 advantage you don't sit back and let the enemy nibble at you. You advance and smash him as quickly as possible to free up your forces to engage the next enemy fleet. This is something even the most basic of cadet should know but he was more concerned with demonstrating his superiority over the enemy than getting on with the job at hand.

I mean honestly, don't cite someone as a tactical genius who manages to lose a battle in which he badly outgunned his opponent, in which his opponent was forced into action and forced to take a certain known route to their objective. You simply can't get a more favorable situation than that. And he lost.

At the very least if you are not going to go after Sisko's fleet with aggression then you should have at least been able to detach enough ships to properly guard your flanks so the Klingons could not do what they did.

BigJKU316 wrote:I mean honestly, don't cite someone as a tactical genius who manages to lose a battle in which he badly outgunned his opponent, in which his opponent was forced into action and forced to take a certain known route to their objective. You simply can't get a more favorable situation than that. And he lost.

On the contrary - despite the Klingon intervention, Dukat won the battle. Sisko's objective was to reach DS9, destroy teh array that was dismantling the minefield, and thereby prevent Dominion reinforcements coming through the wormhole. Dukat's objective was to prevent this from happening. Sisko failed and Dukat succeeded. The fact that the Prophets pulled a deus ex machina on the Dominion fleet in the wormhole does not change this.

When you have a 2 to 1 advantage you don't sit back and let the enemy nibble at you. You advance and smash him as quickly as possible to free up your forces to engage the next enemy fleet.

That tactic runs the risk of enough ships getting clear of the main action to reach DS9 in time to take out the anti-mine system, which would result in a Dominion defeat. Battles are not solely about who destroys most ships, but about who achieves their objectives.

Dukat's tactical ability? Dukat managed that battle in the only way that could possibly have allowed him to lose. He had overwhelming force that had he not futzed around with the issue should have allowed him to crush the Federation fleet before any help could have arrived. Instead he played silly little games and let Sisko control the pace of the battle and fight it in the manner of his choosing.

Dukat's strategy was sound - draw the Feds in by feigning a break in his formation, while massing forces to crush them when they moved to take advantage of that break. It gave him the opportunity to inflict a tactical defeat while continuing to stand on the defensive, and not overcommit forces that may have been needed to cut off any Fed ships that attempted to avoid the main battle and make for DS9. It also worked - the Defiant was the only ship to break through, even with the Klingons' intervention, and she arrived too late to achieve Sisko's objective.