www.ditl.org

SSM's post got me thinking. How could only the Vorlon and the Mimbari defeat the Shadows the previous time when after a thousand years the Mimbari still couldn't aim at all and the alliance had a VERY difficult time. Only managed to pull it help with the help of the older races.

And then I was thinking how come the Mimbari forgot everything a thousand years ago? The Narn I could understand but even they are a little sketchy. G'Kar's book looked truly ancient but the Narn are an older race than Humans aren't they? And we know what happened a thousand years ago and we had a dark age. The Mimbari its even bigger of a threat. A thousand years ago they still had hyperspace capable warships. They should remember these things especially with their prolonged life there hasn't been as many generations between the times.

If you watch the B5 movie In the Beginning you'll hear that many of the Minbari don't believe in the Shadows anymore. They have the mindset of "Their gone for a thousand years, why would they come back?".

My memory is hazy... do we even know that they DID beat the Shadows as such? As I understand it the Shadow agenda was to stirr things up, cause wars, get everyone fighting, smash everything up, and then vanish for a few eons before returning to do it all again. They weren't out to obliterate or conquer and rule over the other species.

I guess it depends on who you ask. The shadows may not see themselves as defeated but... rather then a small scale conflict for them it ended up costing them 2/3s of thier fleet and the Vorlons ended up ruling everything for the next thousand years. So much so that if the Vorlons hadn't gone all crazy they would have had the bulk of the younger races backing them. They may have wanted war but IMO it ended up costing them more then they planned.

To be fair, our records from 1009 arent exactly bountiful. The Minbari managed to win the war in the end, but it wouldn't have been without great cost to both sides. Many people who witnessed the atrocities of the war would have been killed. The statement "Minbari never tell you the whole truth" comes to mind. I imagine many were unwilling to discuss what happened during the shadow war, and so, the primary way of information was lost: First person accounts.

I imagine that it was a somewhat pyrrhic victory.

Rochey wrote:I imagine that it was a somewhat pyrrhic victory.

Thats how I've pictured it for the Vorlons. Seeing they had to get help from many of the other first ones.

However, the effect seems to be very much the reverse with the Minbari. They came out of that war as the most powerful of the younger races. So much so that even a thousand years later no one had risen to challenge them. The Centari who thought of themselves as above all damn near crawled on their hands and knees around the Minbari.

Even Londo, who was more confident of Centauri supremacy than virtually everyone, advised very strongly that the earther's should stay as far away from the Minbari as possible. The Centauri were phenominally powerful in their own right, far more than the Humans and the Narns. Yet he still showed deference to the Minbari.

So much so that the Centari and most of the LoNAW washed their hands of the EA. Even the Narn were only willing to sell Centari weapons to Earth.

Deepcrush wrote:So much so that the Centari and most of the LoNAW washed their hands of the EA. Even the Narn were only willing to sell Centari weapons to Earth.

Yeah humanity didn't stand a chance.

And true our records from 1009 aren't great but remember the Minbari have much longer life times. Our records from 1509 are very good. And when you add in computers and the like the Minbari should have some understanding of the previous war.

Monroe wrote:Yeah humanity didn't stand a chance.

Very true. The fact that Earth stayed in the fight for two years tells a great deal about the effectiveness of Earth Force.

Monroe wrote:And true our records from 1009 aren't great but remember the Minbari have much longer life times. Our records from 1509 are very good. And when you add in computers and the like the Minbari should have some understanding of the previous war.

My guess would be that the Minbari knew as much as the Vorlons wanted them too know.

That's one hell of a point. That's probably the reasoning.

The farther we get into the series the more we notice that the Vorlon's were really pushing their version of history on EVERYONE.

Well that was the whole point of the Shadow/Vorlon conflict, to show which was superior; order or chaos. If the Shadows had won then they likely would have pushed their version of history on the survivors as well.

it was as much a war of information as it was of combat. Information, and idealism. The Vorlon's, after the Minbari all but obliterated the Shadows, were in a very good position to spread the information, their idealism, across the universe. They forcibly shepherded the younger races, including the Minbari, with their condition of forcibly imprinting their information and idealism on the younger cultures. In doing so, they paved the way for giving only one side of the story.