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Hm, for that matter, why did Graham give the new connie such a horribly low shield rating? (the new connie also seemed to be quite maneuverable for its size, especially when it popped out right into a grave yard)

Err, not to get off topic >.>

Remakes? Nah. Allusions to while having completely new adventures? Sure! IMHO ^^

dagadget wrote:Look at the stats on the shielding posted in the Temporal ship Connie entry

Yeah, there's the little issue of that simply being Graham's speculation.

zero_saiyaman wrote:Err, not to get off topic >.>

Don't worry, we tend to do that a lot here.

Welcome to the site.

There's also the fact that there's not a rating for speed of the nConnie, it's a nil, as in no idea. It really looks like the nConnies might have Transwarp for how ridiculously fast the Ent went to get to Vulcan.

The nConnie entry still needs considerable work; it's a work in progress, and was said to be such when it was added.

As for shields... looking at the movie, you wouldn't even know the ship HAD shields. They sure didn't seem to do anything.

Thanks for the welcome to the site! ^^

Graham:

This is all just my opinion, observations, and thoughts of course, but...

On the one hand, without a clear conceptual framework on how shields work (per era,too), it's hard to say much, regrettably. On the other hand, we know that the nConnie's shields were bypassed by Nero's weapons (as were the Kelvin's), which is part of why the Narada was so powerful. It doesn't seem that the missiles overwhelmed the shields, but according to the dialogue on the Kelvin, just ran right through as if they weren't even there.

So, really, the only scene from the movie that can give us an estimate of strength was the grave yard scene. They did say "shields up" immediately after dropping out of warp if I remember right... But the part where something can be said is when the port warp engine scrapes the saucer edge of one of the destroyed ships, plowing off some of the armor (at least, I'm petty sure the armor came from the nConnie -- I've only seen the movie once).

Thus... the only cross references with other ships that I know of that could be used would be where physical impacts take place. Unfortunately, I don't know many instances of that :/. Still, I do feel it's safe to assume the ship's shields would, at the very least, be designed to withstand the power of its own weapons.

Edit: Oh! And BTW Graham, thank you for all your work on this site and its info. I've loved reading this site's pages over the years, and I greatly enjoy the insights and analysis you give on the ships ^^.

zero_saiyaman wrote:It doesn't seem that the missiles overwhelmed the shields, but according to the dialogue on the Kelvin, just ran right through as if they weren't even there.

I have no problem with that, my issue is more with the fact that when they emerged in the debris field over Vulcan every little bit of stuff there was bouncing off the hull. We have many instances of physical objects bouncing off shields in Trek. Apparently not this time.

Thus... the only cross references with other ships that I know of that could be used would be where physical impacts take place. Unfortunately, I don't know many instances of that :/. Still, I do feel it's safe to assume the ship's shields would, at the very least, be designed to withstand the power of its own weapons.

For physical objects bouncing off shields see The Hunted, Nemesis, Datalore, Relics, A Call to Arms, The Raven and Drive.

Edit: Oh! And BTW Graham, thank you for all your work on this site and its info. I've loved reading this site's pages over the years, and I greatly enjoy the insights and analysis you give on the ships ^^.

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.

Didn't they say "Port shields down to 32 percent" or some such after being hit by one of the Narada's weapons in that scene?

Tsukiyumi wrote:Didn't they say "Port shields down to 32 percent" or some such after being hit by one of the Narada's weapons in that scene?

Perhaps the shields are integrated into the hull ala ENT, rather then the traditional bubble. So we don't see any visible sign of them.

They're certainly not like the later 'Trek bubble-type shields; they seem to conform pretty close to the hull.

From a Fan Q&A: http://trekmovie.com/2009/05/18/orci-ku ... romptu-qa/

SHIELDS

RaymondJ: when the Kelvin and later the Enterprise are under attack, and the helmsmen claim "the shields are at 32%" for example, incoming debris and weapons smash the ship as though there were no shields at all. Shouldn't they bounce off or be deflecting until the shields were no longer there?

BobOrci: I too miss the glow of the egg-shaped shields. I can't fully speak for JJ on that one, but I can imagine that he felt it might have seemed TOO protective and somehow rob the scenes of the visceral danger of SPACE right out the window (as evidenced but the genius shot he came up with where a poor crew member gets sucked into SILENT SPACE. Shields seemed to get in the way of that, and I seem to recall conversations about different ways to think of the shields (sealing the hull damage) and providing some kind of electro-tension effect on the hull itself that increased it's natural strength or something. Nonetheless, I feel ya!

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Tsukiyumi wrote:Didn't they say "Port shields down to 32 percent" or some such after being hit by one of the Narada's weapons in that scene?

Perhaps the shields are integrated into the hull ala ENT, rather then the traditional bubble. So we don't see any visible sign of them.

Actually, integrated skin shields are normal for TOS in the prime time line too. They never had bubble shields till TNG, at all. Look at Star Trek VI -- the Enterprise A's shields are obviously embedded within the skin of the ship, else the torpedoes would not scorch the hull when they hit, even at full shield power (same for the Excelsior).

For physical objects bouncing off shields see The Hunted, Nemesis, Datalore, Relics, A Call to Arms, The Raven and Drive.

But none of those are TOS episodes, I don't think. Shields from TNG on are radically, maybe even fundamentally, different than everything seen in TOS and the associated movies. Heck, in STII, shields existed in discreet vectors, not as a contiguous "field" or whatever.

Maybe we should split this into a new thred XD.

I do have another idea for looking at the shield strength of the nConnie. They warp directly into Titan's atmosphere. Now, if they come out of warp at full impulse, 25% c, and begin to decelerate within the atmosphere, as it seemed to happen in the movie.. that's some immense friction the ship would face without shields. Especially since Titan's atmosphere is a thick hydrocarbon soup (it rolling off the Enterprise as it rose was a great touch). Since Sulu didn't look like he decelerated immediately after coming out of warp, one could calculate theoretical friction to get a minimal power from the shields; as I highly doubt any material could survive the heat at 25% c velocities in such a dense atmosphere. The main deflector might complicate matters, but it likely has a optimal focus range (anything too close and above the saucer line would be missed, for instance), so the immediate atmosphere they hit may likely be unperturbed by that; but I don't know for sure as I can't say how a "main deflector" even does what it's stated to do.

That's just a thought, anyways ^^;

And a thread is born.

Personaly I'm going for the hull-hugging shields explaination. We've direct mention of shields, so they're obviously there somewhere.

zero_saiyaman wrote:
Actually, integrated skin shields are normal for TOS in the prime time line too. They never had bubble shields till TNG, at all. Look at Star Trek VI -- the Enterprise A's shields are obviously embedded within the skin of the ship, else the torpedoes would not scorch the hull when they hit, even at full shield power (same for the Excelsior).

Good point, though IIRC there was mention of them being able to extend around other ships, that might have been a novel though.

But none of those are TOS episodes, I don't think. Shields from TNG on are radically, maybe even fundamentally, different than everything seen in TOS and the associated movies. Heck, in STII, shields existed in discreet vectors, not as a contiguous "field" or whatever.

TOS shields seem to behave more like the deflectors in SW, like you point out they are sometimes portrayed as having vectors. They are sometimes referred to as screens as well, which always brought to mind a large hexagon around the ship (for me anyways).

We could sort them in two types of shields.

1) Phase-Shields (or Multiphase-Shields since they encountered the Borg) for TNG and beyond: They have a predetermined strength and absorb all damage until they are down or a weapon system hits them that completely ignores them. The shield generator creates a bubble around the ship.

2) Deflection-Shields: Between ENT and TNG: They absorb a portion of damage depending on the type of weapon fired until they are also overloaded. Advantage: Against weapons they are desinged for, they are highly effective. Disadvantage: Against unknown types they are rather useless and the ship still needs heavy armor that reduces maneuverability to protect itself against the portion that gets through. We see a lot of that in TOS. Here the generator creates a layer of energy around the hull.

The only "mention" of a bubble-like shield in TOS-time is a) when V'ger hit the Enterprise the first time, but still it could be, that the deflection-shields of the refit were designed to withstand plasma-weaponry since the federation learned that the Romulans were using plasma-torpedos; and b) when the Enterprise has to lower shields to allow the shuttle to (crash-)land in ST:V (although I tend to ignore it in canon for it was a completely useless movie and not connected to the greater context).

Still: The shield-power-estimation of the XI Constitution is way too low compared to the TOS Constitution, especially if the Federation entered an arms-race against an overestimated Romulan Star Empire of about 25 (!!) years.

Well, so much for my speculation.

Avatar2312 wrote:The shield-power-estimation of the XI Constitution is way too low compared to the TOS Constitution

But fits the evidence, IMHO. We saw lots of damage to the hull even through newly-raised shields.