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Coalition wrote:You could also cite Season 4 "Legacy", where the Ent-D's main phasers were used to drill through granite to beam the Away Team down. Assuming the width was three meters, and given the rate LaForge was counting out the depths, the phasers were chewing their way through granite at about 600 cubic meters per second.

Or Season 7 "Inheritance" - They drill a hole about 2 meters wide, two kilometers long, in about five seconds. That is 1250 cubic meters per second. This was after Geordi modified the phasers to "create the most highly focused particle beam possible".


These were the starship's main weapons, specially modified for drilling. Is anyone going to seriously claim a hand phaser is more powerful, or even within shouting range of those weapons?


For hand weapon power we did have Season 4 "Mind's Eye" where they measured a phaser rifle at 1.05 MW. The Tech Manual states 1.02 GW for the Ent-D's main phaser array. So a hand phaser should be capable of about 1.29 cubic meters per second, if direct power comparison is valid.

Of course we also have the following power levels:
"Battle Lines" - 40 MW (about 40 times more powerful than a phaser rifle)
"Survivors" - 400 GW
"Who watches the Watchers" - 4.2 GW
"A Matter of Time" - TeraWatt range, but it required using all the EPS taps on board

This is how I unsuccessfully tried to justify Feds defeating Stalingrad =)

Heh, I remember that thread.
Feds'd still die to artillery, though.

Feds would die to Henry V's army. Indeed, if they had TNG weapons rather than TNG movie weapons they'd make the French performance look brilliant by comparison.

Are these conclusions based on the premise of no ship in support of the ground troops?

SteveK wrote:Are these conclusions based on the premise of no ship in support of the ground troops?

Yep.

UFP ground forces vs any army from RL.

Deepcrush wrote:UFP ground forces vs any army from RL.

Any army after the adoption of Native American guerrilla tactics, anyways.

Fair enough. Though, medieval skirmishers could do a lot of hurt. Germanic raiders or Druid Head Hunters.

Is ground combat important in Star Trek?

SteveK wrote:Is ground combat important in Star Trek?

In DS9, we saw one example of what happens to a Federation unit without Starship support, in "Siege of AR-558", where Sisko and others join a Federation unit that is trying to defend a captured Cardassian/Dominion communications relay. The on-site people had lost ~100 people over 3 months of fighting the Dominion and the weird minefield. Or about 1 person per day.

The final battle has the Dominion forces charging through a chokepoint towards the defending forces. The Federation forces have to squeeze off single shots towards the charging Dominion soldiers, before it eventually becomes a hand to hand brawl.

A modern platoon, defending that location, would have done much better. Two groups of people for the HMGs concentrating on the chokepoint, and the rest of the platoon catches up on their email.

I got bored on SDN, and commented about a US Civil war unit being able to defeat the Dominion troops. A cannon loaded with chain or grape shot in what looks like a weak point, and the other troops have muzzleloaders with bayonets. I thought you could reload the muzzleloaders with bayonets fixed, but I was wrong. Still, unload one volley at short range at charging Dominion troops, let the cannon take out the ones that get to the weak point, and kill the rest in HtH combat with people that actually expect and understand HtH combat.

I got bored on SDN, and commented about a US Civil war unit being able to defeat the Dominion troops. A cannon loaded with chain or grape shot in what looks like a weak point, and the other troops have muzzleloaders with bayonets. I thought you could reload the muzzleloaders with bayonets fixed, but I was wrong.

No you weren't. At the start of the war the standard arm was the Springfield rifled musket which used a socket bayonet. You could load the weapon while this was in place though it could get in the way and made the weapon a good deal longer.

As to an American Civil War Company defeating the Dominion troops at AR-558. I think you're right. Even at the short range from the mouth of the path to the defense line. Most troops should be able to Fire at Short, reload and Fire Point Blank. This would be followed in turn by a wall of bayonets and more shots from troops placed up on the high ground.

Coalition wrote: A modern platoon, defending that location, would have done much better. Two groups of people for the HMGs concentrating on the chokepoint, and the rest of the platoon catches up on their email.

Hell, a single guy with a machine gun and ammo could probably have held off that entire attack.

SteveK wrote: Are these conclusions based on the premise of no ship in support of the ground troops?

Yes. When talking about how one army would do against another in ground combat, starships and air support are generaly removed from the equation for both sides.

Is ground combat important in Star Trek?

Of course. Taking planets is a neccessity in warfare, as is defending them.

Deep wrote:Fair enough. Though, medieval skirmishers could do a lot of hurt. Germanic raiders or Druid Head Hunters

Hmm, there's an idea for a battle. How would the Feds do if they replaced the Roman legion that was ambushed and wiped out by Germanic forces in Teutoberg Forrest?
I think it's safe to say that the Feds could take it, due to their superior numbers in this instance, but I'd say there'd be a fair few casualties. The Redshirt Brigades have no sort of melee weapon, meaning that once a German gets within sword-swinging range of one he's screwed, and the forrested terrain will reduce the effectiveness and range of phasers.

Hmm, there's an idea for a battle. How would the Feds do if they replaced the Roman legion that was ambushed and wiped out by Germanic forces in Teutoberg Forrest?
I think it's safe to say that the Feds could take it, due to their superior numbers in this instance, but I'd say there'd be a fair few casualties. The Redshirt Brigades have no sort of melee weapon, meaning that once a German gets within sword-swinging range of one he's screwed, and the forrested terrain will reduce the effectiveness and range of phasers.

Depends on how close the Germans get before the first shots are fired and how the Feds are grouped. Tight formation would mean that they would have trouble firing once the Germans are in the lines.

Historicaly, the Romans were stretched out over about ten miles.

Then I would say a Fed victory. No way for the Germans to cover that much ground before the Feds formed a firing line at some point.