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Okay, the recent discussions over Insurrection has prompted me to make a thread about the moral dilema the film revolves around.

Basicaly, a bunch of Space Amish live on the planet Ba'ku, around which there are these technobabble particles that are equivelant to the Fountain of Youth. The particles heal people, remove illness, rejuvinate old people and can restore a blind man's sight. In short, they're a miracle cure to everything, and might even confer imortality.

However, mining these particles will devastate the planet of Ba'ku, killing the people on the surface. So the UFP offers to move the Ba'ku to another world of their choosing, and help them set up a new home there. Unfortunately, the Ba'ku aren't interested in leaving, thus preventing the mining of the particles.

Some members of the UFP Council decide to go ahead with it anyway, and dispatch a hidden Holoship to move the Ba'ku in secret to an identical world.

Due to an unfortunate accident involving a giant mutant armadillo, every officer on the USS Enterprise E was killed two weeks prior to the events of INS. You have been put in command of the Federation flagship. The other officers on board are all young and naive, and will follow your orders loyally.

So you stumble across Ba'ku and discover the plot to move the Ba'ku to another planet to allow the rings to be mined. What do you do?

Do you interfere in the operation, and stop the Ba'ku being moved, thus preventing the mining of the particles?
Do you shrug and go off elsewhere to fulfull your duties in another region of space, leaving the Ba'ku to fend for themselves?
Do you assist Admiral Dougherty in moving the Ba'ku in secret, thus helping to allow the rings to be mined?

I'm helping the Ba'ku, they have a right to live in peace.

1) Contact the council, and verify that this plan has unilateral support. If not, I assist the council in stopping Dougherty. Easy.

2) Have we determined yet that the Ba'ku people are, in fact, aware of technological advancement and just choose to do things the stupid way? If so, explain the situation to them - but instead of hopping them up on some crusade I've invented, I explain that we've found a place to put them, that they will be left alone there to follow their way of life as they like, and attempt to negotiate with them for the rights to the planet.

3) If all else fails, appeal to the letter of the law - the PD, in this case. If Dougherty continues in his attempts, go over his head to report his breaking of the PD and continue in my efforts to stop him. If he even silently cooperates with any Son'a attack on my ship - even by omission - kick their asses, and shoot him for being a traitor.

Do nothing and go about my business - Dougherty seemed to have the Ba'ku relocation well planned out, so he doesn't need my help, and I'm not about to put the desire of a few hundred people to live for ever above the benefit to billions the harvesting of the rings would produce.

Do nothing, too. Never been too fond of extreme luddites like that.

Other: Summary execution for the Sona leader, than go about my business as normal.

I'd wanna help move them but for the sake of plausable deniability I'd bugger off.

I say other.

First, I'd blast the Sona fleet to pieces. They were Dominion buddies which means I can't trust them.
Second, I'd arrest Dougherty for warcrimes. I don't care if you're the person pulling the trigger to telling someone to pull a trigger. Same to me.
Third, open a dialog with the Baku. Its their world which means the UFP doesn't have the right to take it just because it helps them. The Cardassians did the same thing and look at them now. As far as I see it the Baku never gave any hint that they would try and stop others from coming to their world. Build a few dozen hospitals and call it a day.
Forth, burn the PD. Its nothing more then an excuse in the 24th century.

Deepcrush wrote:First, I'd blast the Sona fleet to pieces. They're present, and I'm bored.

Fixed.

Second, I'd arrest Dougherty for warcrimes. I don't care if you're the person pulling the trigger to telling someone to pull a trigger. Same to me.

What, at this point, had anyone done wrong? Don't forget that this was long before the Son'a started simply beaming the Ba'ku up, or talked of setting off the collector while the planet was occupied.

Third, open a dialog with the Baku. Its their world which means the UFP doesn't have the right to take it just because it helps them.

Going by Dougherty's statements (which Picard said nothing to refute) the very fact that the Ba'ku planet was within Federation space made it Federation property. The Feds slapped a compulsory purchase order on the place, and were going to not only give the Ba'ku a new planet, but also bear all the costs of transfering them and setting up accomadation on said new planet.

The Cardassians did the same thing and look at them now.

Bollocks. The Cardies either enslaved or exiled the entire Bajoran population. The Feds were simply moving the Ba'ku.

As far as I see it the Baku never gave any hint that they would try and stop others from coming to their world. Build a few dozen hospitals and call it a day.

The impression I got wasn't that the radiation alone would be the advantage, but the advancements in medical science that could be achieved by harvesting, studying, and processing the rings.

I'm in a bad mood today, soooo...
Other.
1) Space Dougherty. I don't like him or his scruffy beard.
2) Blow the Sona to pieces. They are ugly and wrinkly and they should have died years ago.
3) Blow up the Baku planet. I'm sure we would have enough QTs for it, and it would remove the whole issue.
4) Shoot the writers.
5) Steal the micro TIE fighters that the Sona had and equip them with small antimatter warheads.
6) Beam the micro TIE fighters into the Federation senate (or whatever).
7) Declare myself emperor and build a Death Star with a grate over the exhaust port.
8) Rule the galaxy.

First, I'd blast the Sona fleet to pieces. They're present, and I'm bored.

Captain Seafort wrote:Going by Dougherty's statements (which Picard said nothing to refute) the very fact that the Ba'ku planet was within Federation space made it Federation property. The Feds slapped a compulsory purchase order on the place, and were going to not only give the Ba'ku a new planet, but also bear all the costs of transfering them and setting up accomadation on said new planet.

It all hinges on this, really. Dougherty's claim seems unbelievable to me, given the way the Federation has generally reacted in situations where primitives have something they need and decline to hand it over. If so then they have no legal right to move anybody anywhere or harvest anything.

Bollocks. The Cardies either enslaved or exiled the entire Bajoran population. The Feds were simply moving the Ba'ku.

Which would have involved kidnapping and exiling their entire population. So quite like the Cardassians, really.

The impression I got wasn't that the radiation alone would be the advantage, but the advancements in medical science that could be achieved by harvesting, studying, and processing the rings.

The radiation alone was not enough for the Son'a - they were too far gone. But it would certainly be enough for most people - we need merely look at what it did to the Enterprise crew in only a few days. If Geordi's eyes can become function in that amount of time, then simply setting up a few hospitals and resorts there would be hugely useful.

It all hinges on this, really. Dougherty's claim seems unbelievable to me, given the way the Federation has generally reacted in situations where primitives have something they need and decline to hand it over. If so then they have no legal right to move anybody anywhere or harvest anything.

In the other situations, however, they weren't in UFP space, AFAIK. If the UFP declares "everything within an X light year range of Earth is ours", then they do own the planet, and can thus presumably do what they want with it.

GrahamKennedy wrote:It all hinges on this, really. Dougherty's claim seems unbelievable to me, given the way the Federation has generally reacted in situations where primitives have something they need and decline to hand it over. If so then they have no legal right to move anybody anywhere or harvest anything.

As Rochey said, these incidents tended to occur outside Federation space. They also tended to occur when the Enterprise was negotiating with an established planetary government (Hakon and Ligon II are the ones I can recall), with all the resources that implies, and an attempt to take whatever the Feds wanted would at the very least have required assaulting the planet, and possibly all-out war with the locals. The Ba'ku were few enough and primitive enough that they could be ferreted away in the middle of the night, with no casualties on either side.

Which would have involved kidnapping and exiling their entire population. So quite like the Cardassians, really.

Not at all - more like Homeward, where the population was evacuated to avoid the environmental disaster on their homeworld, albeit premptively due to the disaster in question being a side effect of the Federation's planned harvesting of the rings. Moreover, the Bajorans were an established, viable population, with effective control of their planet, and given their spaceflight and limited interstellar capability probably had diplomatic relations with their neighbours. The Ba'ku were none of these. The Cardassians made no attempt to relocate the Bajoran population peacefully with the minimum of disruption, enslaved a substantial chunk of the population for heavy labour, and made no effort to supply the relocated individuals with a replacement planet. The Federation had no intention of enslaving anyone, and was going to great lengths to ensure that the disruption to Ba'ku society was minimal.

The radiation alone was not enough for the Son'a - they were too far gone. But it would certainly be enough for most people - we need merely look at what it did to the Enterprise crew in only a few days. If Geordi's eyes can become function in that amount of time, then simply setting up a few hospitals and resorts there would be hugely useful.

Certainly, but the very fact that the processed rings would be effective in treating the Son'a whereas the natural radiation would not indicates that the processed stuff is far more potent and therefore more widely useable. It's also worth noting that Geordi was back to using his implants by Nemesis, indicating either that the effects of the natural radiation require prolonged exposure to be effective, or that it's only effective so long as an individual remains on, or in the vicinity of, the planet.

Captain Seafort wrote:

GrahamKennedy wrote:It all hinges on this, really. Dougherty's claim seems unbelievable to me, given the way the Federation has generally reacted in situations where primitives have something they need and decline to hand it over. If so then they have no legal right to move anybody anywhere or harvest anything.

As Rochey said, these incidents tended to occur outside Federation space.

Do they? It's rarely stated one way or the other as I recall. But I'm far from clear what being "in Federation space" even means in this context. Clearly the Bak'u are not Federation citizens. Is there any reason why they would be subject to Federation law?

This goes back to an earlier discussion we had in a thread about what happens when Federation expansion hits a primitive world. Here, it seems an (apparently) primitive world was discovered within Federation borders. I find it very difficult to believe that in such cases the planet and its people are simply subject to Federation law and the whims of the government even whilst being denied any membership of that government. And I said earlier, if that IS the case then exactly what is Riker rushing off to shout the word for? "The government is doing something it has every right to do!" is hardly going cause a controversy.

As I said before, for me this is the biggest failing of the whole movie. It's never made clear exactly what is going on here or what the legal position is. My best take on it is that the Council or some fraction of it was involved in a criminal conspiracy, but either way you cut it has problematical implications.

They also tended to occur when the Enterprise was negotiating with an established planetary government (Hakon and Ligon II are the ones I can recall), with all the resources that implies, and an attempt to take whatever the Feds wanted would at the very least have required assaulting the planet, and possibly all-out war with the locals. The Ba'ku were few enough and primitive enough that they could be ferreted away in the middle of the night, with no casualties on either side.

I don't really see that the ease of the assault has anything to do with it. Abducting a child is far easier than abducting an adult, it doesn't make it any different legally speaking.

Not at all - more like Homeward, where the population was evacuated to avoid the environmental disaster on their homeworld, albeit premptively due to the disaster in question being a side effect of the Federation's planned harvesting of the rings. Moreover, the Bajorans were an established, viable population, with effective control of their planet, and given their spaceflight and limited interstellar capability probably had diplomatic relations with their neighbours. The Ba'ku were none of these. The Cardassians made no attempt to relocate the Bajoran population peacefully with the minimum of disruption, enslaved a substantial chunk of the population for heavy labour, and made no effort to supply the relocated individuals with a replacement planet. The Federation had no intention of enslaving anyone, and was going to great lengths to ensure that the disruption to Ba'ku society was minimal.

Again, a series of differences that make no difference to my mind. The Bak'u were established on the planet - they'd been there for centuries. Viable? They had enough of a population to continue indefinitely, especially given that they have an almost indefinite lifespan. I don't really see what "effective control" has to do with anything. Interstellar capability makes a difference in the degree to which the PD applies to be sure, but it continues to apply after that is achieved.

And true they didn't intend to enslave them - I didn't say they did. I said they intended to kidnap them, which is the truth. As to the degree of disruption which may or may not occur, again I don't really see the relevance, but at the very least what the Federation planned would rob the Bak'u of centuries of expected lifespan, per person.

Certainly, but the very fact that the processed rings would be effective in treating the Son'a whereas the natural radiation would not indicates that the processed stuff is far more potent and therefore more widely useable.

No argument that the concentrated form would be more useable; but the non concentrated form would still be highly useful.