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Captain Seafort wrote:That depends on the capacity of the shield, the type of material, and what's being thrown at it. For example, 12" battleship armour plate of WW2 was far more effective against projectiles than the shields of a GCS.

Perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.

Mikey wrote:Irrelevant. Especially for the UFP, the end of a war would be taking and holding territory, not destroying it or rendering it unusable.

Just rewatched "What you leave behind" and I must say I stand by my comment. They did not say "Yeah...their fleet has withdrawn to cardassia, let us capture the numerous planets one by one". Also no mention of the need to capture some worlds where no fleets were left because they would pose a threat to their backs, no they jumped straight after the dominion fleet pretty much ignoring the rest of the territory of the CU and on arrival they argued if they should just blockade them in this system or end it once and for all.

It was departing from DS9 to fighting a a battle with the dominion fleet at their border and then following them back to cardassia prime. No planets needed as staging point etc.

Sure, later on they would have need if all the worlds within the CU would resist and they really need to capture all of them one by one but first and most importantly comes the fight in space. It probably does not make a lot of sense but that is what we see on ds9.

Snoopy wrote: Againe with the name calling. I see you have no real argument.

Don't try and pull that tactic. It won't fly here. The presence or absence of insults does not in any way discredit an argument.

For example, which of the following rebutals is better:

A) "I'm of the opinion you are wrong."

or

B) "You're a fucking imbecile with the inteligence of a hamster, because your argument is proven wrong by X,Y and Z, moron."

Sure, rebuttal A is more polite, but rebuttal B is better.

M52 wrote:Perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.

Aye, I can see how you're right in that comment. I mean, all the numbers and quotes that you provided from canon sources have shot that theory straight out of the water.
Oh....wait.....

When declaring something is wrong, it's generaly a good idea to explain why, rather than just declaring "you're wrong".

Atekimogus wrote:

Mikey wrote:Irrelevant. Especially for the UFP, the end of a war would be taking and holding territory, not destroying it or rendering it unusable.

Just rewatched "What you leave behind" and I must say I stand by my comment. They did not say "Yeah...their fleet has withdrawn to cardassia, let us capture the numerous planets one by one". Also no mention of the need to capture some worlds where no fleets were left because they would pose a threat to their backs, no they jumped straight after the dominion fleet pretty much ignoring the rest of the territory of the CU and on arrival they argued if they should just blockade them in this system or end it once and for all.

It was departing from DS9 to fighting a a battle with the dominion fleet at their border and then following them back to cardassia prime. No planets needed as staging point etc.

Sure, later on they would have need if all the worlds within the CU would resist and they really need to capture all of them one by one but first and most importantly comes the fight in space. It probably does not make a lot of sense but that is what we see on ds9.

Believe me, I understand where you're going, and I know that much of the time you're supported by canon. My point has been that sooner or later you will need boots on the ground; and at that time is a bit too late to start preparing.

m52nickerson wrote:Perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.

You can call it the most purple thing you've ever heard; but just saying a thing to be a certain way doesn't really make it that way.

mlsnoopy wrote:I know how it looks from the out side. But how its made on the inside.

Made the same way as the barreled gun on the Argo.

mlsnoopy wrote:Againe with the name calling. I see you have no real argument.

No, the name-callign was included in the argument. It wasn't nice, but it doesn't render the rest of the statement invisible.

mlsnoopy wrote:Than you also have water, swams, forrest, hills,... numerus natural obstacles, that limit the moment of the tank. There is not such limitation on a shuttle.

OK, 24th century and all that, but answer something for me: we have water, swamps, forests, hills, etc. right now on Earth. Are you saying that modern MBT's are ineffective and should be completely abandoned, and modern militaries just use choppers and strike fighters instead? That's sure what it sounds like, and if it were true I'd think that strategy would have been adopted already. As it stands, MBT's and other armor play a crucial role in modern warfare, even though we do have air superiority and ground-attack craft.

mlsnoopy wrote:Hm. Than how can they travle FTL. How can they reduce the mass of an object. Tell me. Using Newton.

Are you kidding? Seafort just excepted such things completely logically in the response you quoted; and furthermore, how does FTL enter the discussion of ground-support tactical capability?

mlsnoopy wrote:Its ony a metter of the arc, nothing more.

"Nothing more?" The firing arc is built-in to the design of the vehicle in question. If you have an arc optimized for ground support from the air, then it is by definition poorly optimized for AA or infantry support.

mlsnoopy wrote:Well if you have something better there is no need to live in the past.

The whole point of this debate is whether or not we do have something better. Assuming the result and then using it as an argument is either completely illogical, or intentionally dishonest.

Rochey wrote:

M52 wrote:Perhaps the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard.

Aye, I can see how you're right in that comment. I mean, all the numbers and quotes that you provided from canon sources have shot that theory straight out of the water.
Oh....wait.....

When declaring something is wrong, it's generaly a good idea to explain why, rather than just declaring "you're wrong".

Wow! I never realized a fleet of Klingon ships with WW2 battleship main guns mounted on them would be such a danger to the federation! Let alone a small meteorite or piece space debris.

Not even battleship guns - "The Survivors" shows that a full broadside from a German heavy cruiser would have been sufficient to knock down the E-D's shields in the same way the fake Husnock ship did.

Captain Seafort wrote:Not even battleship guns - "The Survivors" shows that a full broadside from a German heavy cruiser would have been sufficient to knock down the E-D's shields in the same way the fake Husnock ship did.

Yes, because some writer did not do math...........

........lets get back to some sanity!

m52nickerson wrote: Yes, because some writer did not do math...........

........lets get back to some sanity!

Do you not get the concept of SoD or what?

Cpl Kendall wrote:

m52nickerson wrote: Yes, because some writer did not do math...........

........lets get back to some sanity!

Do you not get the concept of SoD or what?

We had a thread about that and a strict SoD is crappy at best when assessing things in the Sci-Fi universe.

I can't believe this bullshit is still spitting out in here.

The Allies had a stage ground, DS9 for ship repair and the Bajor Moons for supplies and hospitals. The Romulans even asked for one of their own! Add to the rest of the crap you guys have been throwing about like "They just attacked Cardassia Prime and left everything else alone". AHFUCKYOU! The UFP and KDF were mounting ground invasions all over the place. Including where Martok lead the attack against the CU 11th order. Half a million cardis defending a single ground location. They didn't skip to Cardassia Prime, its just all that was left. The founder even ordered all of the Dominion's surviving forces to fall back to Cardassia Prime.

We had a thread about that and a strict SoD is crappy at best when assessing things in the Sci-Fi universe.

SoD is tied to WYSIWYG rule.

If it is seen then it is canon. The goal is to try and remove the Hero Ship factor and figure the effects it has IU on its own for the layman.

m52nickerson wrote:
We had a thread about that and a strict SoD is crappy at best when assessing things in the Sci-Fi universe.

Then here is a little hint, the figures in The Survivors indicates a possible low level for the E-D shields. Now there are other, higher figures available. Perhaps if you went and found one you could argue that the E-D didn't have her shields up to full power against the Husnock.

Oh and because I promised earlier:

The debate in video format

m52nickerson wrote:We had a thread about that and a strict SoD is crappy at best when assessing things in the Sci-Fi universe.

We did, and I recall the main sticking point was over visuals vs dialogue. In this case there's no such conflict - we only have dialogue, with no visuals contradicting the statement. The E-D's shields were knocked down by 400GW of "particle energy" (presumably meaning KE). That's about the same as the energy of eight German 203mm shells striking at 925 m/s.

Captain Seafort wrote:

m52nickerson wrote:We had a thread about that and a strict SoD is crappy at best when assessing things in the Sci-Fi universe.

We did, and I recall the main sticking point was over visuals vs dialogue. In this case there's no such conflict - we only have dialogue, with no visuals contradicting the statement. The E-D's shields were knocked down by 400GW of "particle energy" (presumably meaning KE). That's about the same as the energy of eight German 203mm shells striking at 925 m/s.

The thread turned into SoD vs Intent and people did state that visuals and or dialogue should not be used as a be-all-end-all.

Visuals < Intent > Dialogue

Kendall....

Thats about right!

Visuals < Intent > Dialogue

LOL, someone quoted me... AHAHAHAHAHAHA!