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I was watching Sins of the Father last week, when I was reminded of something. That was truely a shady, Romulan-like move the council played with the House of Mohg's honor. They found out that Duras's father was a traitor, but because the House of Duras was so powerful that if they were implicated it could spark a civil war, they blame a perfectly innocent Klingon to take the fall. Where Kimpec and the others that FRIGHTENED of Duras?

What do you guys think?

Mark wrote:I was watching Sins of the Father last week, when I was reminded of something. That was truely a shady, Romulan-like move the council played with the House of Mohg's honor. They found out that Duras's father was a traitor, but because the House of Duras was so powerful that if they were implicated it could spark a civil war, they blame a perfectly innocent Klingon to take the fall. Where Kimpec and the others that FRIGHTENED of Duras?

What do you guys think?

I think this episode showed that the honor and way of the warrior coda of the Klingons was more followed by the common Klingon but to the uppercrust of Klingon society, honor is an illusion used to maintain their power and enforce the stability and prosperity of the Klingon Empire. The Duras family are traitors but so long as they are powerful, K'mpec will protect their name all based on the illusion he will keep his Empire together.

I don't think the High Council were fearful of Duras the Klingon or not necessarily his family's power and influence. I think they were more fearful that when the rest of the Klingons find out that there is a traitor on the Council, those who remember the Romulans for the backstabbers they are, will immediately turn on the Duras and the High Council. There will be civil war and the Empire will crumble from within before the outside enemies of the Klingon Empire sweep in and destroy them. I think K'mpec also felt that as long as he can keep an eye on Duras he could control his ambitions and perhaps keep his growing power in check.

Klingons strive to be honourable but don't always achive it as this shows. Just like I try to be a good person but as the closet full of corpes shows I don't always manage it.

For Klingons, honour is what best serves their interests.

Ezri raised this exact point with Worf in "Tacking into the Wind". He made one of his usual declarations about how important honour was and she calmly pointed out that the Klingon Empire is far from honourable in many of the things it has done, and that in fact Worf himself has gone along with those dishonourable things more than once.

Ah, I found the script :

EZRI
Okay. But, I'm not sure you're
going to like it.
(beat)
I think the situation with Gowron
is just a symptom of a deeper
problem. The Klingon Empire is
dying. And I think it deserves
to die.

WORF
You're right. I don't like it.

EZRI
Don't get me wrong, I'm really
touched that you still consider me
a member of the House of Martok...
but I tend to look at the Empire

with a little more skepticism than
Curzon or Jadzia did.
(beat)

DEEP SPACE NINE: "Tacking into... " - REV. 03/22/99 - ACT FOUR 38-40.

32B CONTINUED: (2)

EZRI (Cont'd)
I see a society in deep denial
about itself. We're talking
about a warrior culture that
prides itself on maintaining
centuries-old traditions of honor
and integrity... but in reality,
it's willing to accept corruption
at the highest level.

WORF
You're overstating your case.

EZRI
Am I? Who was the last leader of
the High Council that you respected?
Has there even been one?

His silence speaks volumes.

EZRI
How many times have you had to
help cover up the crimes of
Klingon leaders because someone
told you it was for the "good of
the Empire?"
(beat)
I know this sounds harsh, but...
the truth is, you've been willing
to accept a government you know
is corrupt. Gowron is just the
latest example.
(beat)
Worf, you're one of the most
honorable and decent men I've
ever met... and if you're willing
to tolerate men like Gowron, what
hope is there for the Empire?

This is actually something I dearly love about the TNG+ Klingons. For all their spouting about honour, they are as pragmatic, flawed and corrupt as anybody else. And in fact more than most. Worf himself, often held up as a super-honourable guy, has participated in more than one government cover-up, direct lies sold to the Klingon people for what the leaders perceive as their own good.

I suppose it shows a good amount of realism. A culture that tries to live by honourable standards, but completely fails to do so, and often lies about it to maintain face.

It goes back to what I mentioned in the other thread of the difference between what Klingon honor is supposed (said) to be and what it actually is. Worf seems to be a supposed model of what Klingon honor is "supposed" to be, though he did indeed betray his honor to stave off his execution in "Sins of the Father." It seems that if the High Council had indeed followed the supposed code of honor in the time of Kem'Pok (sp?), the honor at stake would have almost demanded that a civil war occur then - never mind that all he achieved was to delay the inevitable war anyway! It seemed as though the KIingons were afraid of the implications of following their honor through to its ends.

These are all generalizations, and I think the point is what makes TNG+ Klingons a bit more accessible - there are no generalities as such. Different Klingons interpret "honor" differently, some regard it as paramount, some don't regard it at all. Some believe it should come before all else, some are willing to subvert it for more pragmatic ends.

I myself see them very much a view of WW2 Japan. Honor being held so highly but so lightly used.

Considering these honour traditions about Klingons apparently date back to very very very early history you wonder if they ca change,

Sure they may not follow honour but their society is built around it. Thus if its abbandoned they lose a big part of who they are as a society. It would be like TNG era humans going "Nah w dont need to explore anymore, we've seen plenty and I'm getting a bit home sick"

Well, the TOS Klingons never had the obsession with honour that the TNG Klingons did, so I think their society did change at that point.

Rochey wrote:For Klingons, honour is what best serves their interests.

I think that's it exactly. Graham Kennedy makes a great point by quoting Season 7 DS9 episodes where it becomes CLEAR that the Klingons are just totally full of it. Additionally, after all those years of dying honorably they're probably on their way down in the galaxy. I would love to see something where the Klingons are falling to the expanding Romulan Empire. Worf is a great character for me because it's his almost childlike obsession with Klingon honor (understandable as he was raised OUTSIDE of Klingon culture yet he simply read up on all of it and make himself an expert because he no identity growing up). Yet as he is outside of the Inner Circle, he really doesn't fit in with the other Klingons. It's no surprise he didn't last as a diplomat working for the Klingons and ended up back in the comfort of the Enterprise crew.

Rochey wrote:Well, the TOS Klingons never had the obsession with honour that the TNG Klingons did, so I think their society did change at that point.

They were certainly warriors who were into glory, but it didn't really get driven by honor-focused rhetoric even as late as The Undiscovered Country.
I think the fall-back on being obsessed with honor arose AFTER the Klingon decline in the 2290s and the resulting alliance with the Federation. I could totally see Klingon politicians getting popular support by talking about honor, kind of like Republicans talking about Jesus or family values or whatever, and then just ripping each other off and mooching off of the Federation.
I think if there's a show in the 25th century or something, I could imagine Kronos being a Federation planet where all sorts of people go and look at old Klingon castles and get their pictures taken with an aging, overweight Klingon wearing a replica of an old military uniform.

They were certainly warriors who were into glory, but it didn't really get driven by honor-focused rhetoric even as late as The Undiscovered Country.
I think the fall-back on being obsessed with honor arose AFTER the Klingon decline in the 2290s and the resulting alliance with the Federation. I could totally see Klingon politicians getting popular support by talking about honor, kind of like Republicans talking about Jesus or family values or whatever, and then just ripping each other off and mooching off of the Federation.
I think if there's a show in the 25th century or something, I could imagine Kronos being a Federation planet where all sorts of people go and look at old Klingon castles and get their pictures taken with an aging, overweight Klingon wearing a replica of an old military uniform.

I think it was the events of STVI that changed the Klingons so harshly. They went overnight from being a superpower to bump in the road. The SF even called that they could defeat the KDF without doubt since so many resources of the KE were being moved to save their home world. I try to think of the changes that could warp a culture so quickly.

Maybe HONOR was their way of keeping together through what must have been 50 years of pure hell. They needed at least that much time to rebuild their empire and keep from falling into civil war. Honor became their escape and their bonding. Honor doesn't need money or love or anything from anyone else. Honor is just one person doing what they think is right. Reliving grand stories from their history, treating them like they were true. Talking about how everyone must die for the glory of the empire.

I think that's it exactly. Graham Kennedy makes a great point by quoting Season 7 DS9 episodes where it becomes CLEAR that the Klingons are just totally full of it. Additionally, after all those years of dying honorably they're probably on their way down in the galaxy. I would love to see something where the Klingons are falling to the expanding Romulan Empire. Worf is a great character for me because it's his almost childlike obsession with Klingon honor (understandable as he was raised OUTSIDE of Klingon culture yet he simply read up on all of it and make himself an expert because he no identity growing up). Yet as he is outside of the Inner Circle, he really doesn't fit in with the other Klingons. It's no surprise he didn't last as a diplomat working for the Klingons and ended up back in the comfort of the Enterprise crew.

While close, I don't picture the KE falling to the RSE. The RSE has never wanted open war with the KE, and from what we've seen wouldn't be able to win anyhow. The RSE is in as much trouble if not more then the KE. They aren't expanding, in fact that was one of the things that brought them out of hiding was how much everyone else was growing around them. That and the Borg attacks. Even if the RSE tried to expand, attacking the KE would draw in the UFP. This would only get the RSE a hard curbstomp before sending them home crying.

Deepcrush wrote:I think it was the events of STVI that changed the Klingons so harshly. They went overnight from being a superpower to bump in the road. The SF even called that they could defeat the KDF without doubt since so many resources of the KE were being moved to save their home world. I try to think of the changes that could warp a culture so quickly.

Maybe HONOR was their way of keeping together through what must have been 50 years of pure hell. They needed at least that much time to rebuild their empire and keep from falling into civil war. Honor became their escape and their bonding. Honor doesn't need money or love or anything from anyone else. Honor is just one person doing what they think is right. Reliving grand stories from their history, treating them like they were true. Talking about how everyone must die for the glory of the empire.

...but once they had restored the power of their Empire, that functional power of Klingon honor became irrelevant and honor became to the Klingons a grandiose ideal without substance to be tossed around indiscriminately. Interesting theory - and as good an explanation for the change as I can see.