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Sonic Glitch wrote:

Mikey wrote:Not quite.

Tiberius wrote:the original trojan horse, was "Get your guys into enemy territory by making them look like something the enemy doesn't need to worry about wants to welcome into it's territory."

Fixed.

So the Trojans happened to be on the market for a giant wooden horse? Interesting hobbies they had back then...

Poseidon was one of the primary deities of Troy; the horse, being a symbol of Poseidon, thus came to be a very important symbol to the Trojans. When the Trojans saw the giant horse, obviously built as a religious tribute, they couldn't resist bringing it into the city. This was further compounded by the fact that when Laco'on - a priest of Poseidon - famoulsy warned, "I fear the Greeks, even when they bear gifts," he was promptly killed by two huge snakes. The snakes were sent by Athene, who favored the Greeks, but the Trojans interpreted the event to mean that Laco'on was killed for speaking against the idea of taking the horse inside the city.

The Trojans' desire to bring the horse inside was even further compounded by the story of Sinon - a Greek soldier who was intentionally left to be captured by the Trojans and told them a story - that the Greeks had given up, begun to set sail for home, built the horse in order to propitiate Poseidon for a safe voyage home, and intentionally built it too big for the Trojans to bring inside their walls - you know, so the Trojans couldn't take advantage of the supernatural benefits of the horse. Of course, the Trojans immediately set about breaking down some of the city wall in order to bring the horse inside.

EDIT: At least, according to the Aeneid, that is.

Mikey wrote:Not quite.

Tiberius wrote:the original trojan horse, was "Get your guys into enemy territory by making them look like something the enemy doesn't need to worry about wants to welcome into it's territory."

Fixed.

First of all, what Sonic Glitch said.

Secondly, I don't think the Vulcans were going to just blindly bring these ships in.

Thirdly, I think you are holding the Romulan plan as an exact recreation of the trojan Horse plan. There's no evidence that hiding the troops on the Vulcan ships was the only way to get them to Vulcan.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Tiberius wrote:Camoflage is not making something appear invisible. Camoflage is making it look like something it is not .

Camouflage involves making an object blend into its surrounding by eliminating or disguising those aspects of it that are obviously artificial. A cloak is that principle taken to its logical conclusion.

I won't continue with this point, because ultimately it is irrelvant. What is relevant is that in either case, the Romulans were planning on getting their troops to Vulcan by making them look like something other than Romulan troops.

It worked well enough to let the warbird that destroyed those vulcan ships remain completely undetected until the moment they decloaked.

Being able to cruise around Federation space undetected is one thing - the equivalent of the U-boats that were able to cruise off the US cost undetected in early 1942. Being able to approach Vulcan and disembark troops undetected is the equivalent of using said U-boat to attack Manhattan Island in broad daylight.

Ah, but the element of surprise!

If the Warbird has the ability to carry several thousand troops, then it would logically have a way to quickly mobilize those troops, yes? They're not going to just let them all file single file out the airlock, are they? They'd have lots of big transporters or something like that.

So I think that it's likely that if the warbird made it to Vulcan carrying several thousand troops, they'd be able to beam the whole lot of them down or otherwise get them to the surface in a fairly short period of time. Less than ten or fifteen minutes, say. Once that happens, you don't need the warbird anymore. It's already done its job.

Sonic Glitch wrote:

Mikey wrote:Not quite.

Tiberius wrote:the original trojan horse, was "Get your guys into enemy territory by making them look like something the enemy doesn't need to worry about wants to welcome into it's territory."

Fixed.

So the Trojans happened to be on the market for a giant wooden horse? Interesting hobbies they had back then...

They lost a piece of their giant chess set, duh

Tiberius wrote:First of all, what Sonic Glitch said.

Sonic made a joke about the Trojans' covetousness for giant wooden horses. I'm not sure at what you're getting here.

Tiberius wrote:Secondly, I don't think the Vulcans were going to just blindly bring these ships in.

Probably not. It's a damned good thing that nobody thinks that they had to do so.

Tiberius wrote:Thirdly, I think you are holding the Romulan plan as an exact recreation of the trojan Horse plan.

You'd be thinking incorrectly.

Tiberius wrote:There's no evidence that hiding the troops on the Vulcan ships was the only way to get them to Vulcan.

Absolutely true. There is, however, overwhelming evidence that hiding the troops on the Vulcan ships was the plan that the Romulans chose to execute.

Mikey wrote:

Tiberius wrote:Secondly, I don't think the Vulcans were going to just blindly bring these ships in.

Probably not. It's a damned good thing that nobody thinks that they had to do so.

So how would it work? The Vulcans would not let a bunch of people just beam down from these ships without scanning them first and discovering a bunch of Romulans inside. it would be like using the Trojan horse when they knew full well that the horse was going to be inspected inside and out before it was taken inside. Wouldn't have worked.

Tiberius wrote:Thirdly, I think you are holding the Romulan plan as an exact recreation of the trojan Horse plan.

You'd be thinking incorrectly.

Then they don't need to have their troops on something the Vulcans would welcome into their planet, so they don't need to have their troops on the Vulcan ships where they can be easily detected.

Tiberius wrote:There's no evidence that hiding the troops on the Vulcan ships was the only way to get them to Vulcan.

Absolutely true. There is, however, overwhelming evidence that hiding the troops on the Vulcan ships was the plan that the Romulans chose to execute.

Agreed. And what does that tell us? Why did the Romulans choose to put their troops (or at least SOME of their troops) on the Vulcan ships instead of the warbird?

Answer: because they could not fit enough troops on the warbird to complete their plan.

So how many troops could they fit on the warbird? We don't know for sure, but if 2000 troops meant the difference between success and failure, then I don't think it's any more than between 6000 to 10,000. It might be less, but I doubt it, as we know from YE that a ship with the volume of a GCS can fit about 6000 troops. And I doubt it would be more, because the more troops you can fit on the warbird, the smaller the percentage of the total troops made up by the troops on the Vulcan ships, and thus the less important those troops are to the plan.

Tiberius wrote:So how would it work? The Vulcans would not let a bunch of people just beam down from these ships without scanning them first and discovering a bunch of Romulans inside. it would be like using the Trojan horse when they knew full well that the horse was going to be inspected inside and out before it was taken inside. Wouldn't have worked.

So why did the Romulans do it in the first place? Are you suggesting that they went to tremendous effort to steal those ships, conceal that fact and disguise their identities all to support a plan they knew wouldn't work?

Then they don't need to have their troops on something the Vulcans would welcome into their planet, so they don't need to have their troops on the Vulcan ships where they can be easily detected.

On the contrary - the fact that they used the Vulcan ships at all, and that that they retreated the instant Spock's message warning of their actual role went out, demonstrates that they were a vital part of the plan.

Tiberius wrote:There's no evidence that hiding the troops on the Vulcan ships was the only way to get them to Vulcan.

Absolutely true. There is, however, overwhelming evidence that hiding the troops on the Vulcan ships was the plan that the Romulans chose to execute.

Agreed. And what does that tell us? Why did the Romulans choose to put their troops (or at least SOME of their troops) on the Vulcan ships instead of the warbird?

On this point I disagree fundamentally with both you and Mikey - the fact that they went to such lengths to obtain those ships demonstrates that the Romulan at least considered their use to be the only way the invasion could succeed.

Answer: because they could not fit enough troops on the warbird to complete their plan.

If the warbird's troop capacity was the limiting factor, and it could have reached Vulcan and deployed them without interference, why didn't they just send two warbirds? Or three, or four, or ten, or however many were needed?

Captain Seafort wrote:

Tiberius wrote:So how would it work? The Vulcans would not let a bunch of people just beam down from these ships without scanning them first and discovering a bunch of Romulans inside. it would be like using the Trojan horse when they knew full well that the horse was going to be inspected inside and out before it was taken inside. Wouldn't have worked.

So why did the Romulans do it in the first place? Are you suggesting that they went to tremendous effort to steal those ships, conceal that fact and disguise their identities all to support a plan they knew wouldn't work?

Honestly, I have no idea. But I'm not trying to figure out the validity of the Romulan's plan. I'll be perfectly happy to assume that the Romulans had some way around this (even though Geordi was able to determine that there were Romulan troops on those ships, even the number of them.)

Perhaps the Romulans had counted on no serious scans until they reached Vulcan, and the presence of the Enterprise threw a spanner in the works. They had figured that any vessel which got close enough to determine the truth could be avoided or perhaps destroyed by the warbird.

Then they don't need to have their troops on something the Vulcans would welcome into their planet, so they don't need to have their troops on the Vulcan ships where they can be easily detected.

On the contrary - the fact that they used the Vulcan ships at all, and that that they retreated the instant Spock's message warning of their actual role went out, demonstrates that they were a vital part of the plan.

So which was the essential part of that? The fact that they had Vulcan ships, or the fact that they had the 2000 troops?

On this point I disagree fundamentally with both you and Mikey - the fact that they went to such lengths to obtain those ships demonstrates that the Romulan at least considered their use to be the only way the invasion could succeed.

isn't this (almost) what Mikey and I agreed on? it doesn't prove that it was the only way it could have succeeded, but it does show that it was the way the Romulans thought it would work the best.

Answer: because they could not fit enough troops on the warbird to complete their plan.

If the warbird's troop capacity was the limiting factor, and it could have reached Vulcan and deployed them without interference, why didn't they just send two warbirds? Or three, or four, or ten, or however many were needed?

Well, I've assumed that there is a sensor net at the Border and it can detect a cloaked warbird crossing. After all, if it couldn't, there'd be cloaked warbirds crossing all the time. But if the warbird crossed the net at the same time as some easily detectable ships, then any disturbance caused by the cloaked warbird can be covered by saying it was the other ship.

So that could be why they needed the Vulcan ships, and it could also explain why it was important that they get the Vulcan ships, to make it look like a legitimate peace effort.

As for why they didn't send more warbirds, perhaps the three Vulcan ships wouldn't be able to cover two warbirds crossing the Border. And as they can't have three Vulcan ships going back and forth across the Border to bring several warbirds coming over (not without looking suspicious), they were only able to bring one warbird. Perhaps if they'd had more Vulcan ships they could have brought a second warbird, but since they had trouble getting the three, that's all they could smuggle over.

Tiberius wrote:Honestly, I have no idea. But I'm not trying to figure out the validity of the Romulan's plan. I'll be perfectly happy to assume that the Romulans had some way around this (even though Geordi was able to determine that there were Romulan troops on those ships, even the number of them.)

Was able to determine or already knew? As I pointed out earlier, we don't know if Geordi's information came from the sensors or intelligence (or whether he simply scanned 2000 individuals and extrapolated that they were troops).

Well, I've assumed that there is a sensor net at the Border and it can detect a cloaked warbird crossing. After all, if it couldn't, there'd be cloaked warbirds crossing all the time. But if the warbird crossed the net at the same time as some easily detectable ships, then any disturbance caused by the cloaked warbird can be covered by saying it was the other ship.

Warbirds had been going back and forth across the border for years, only detectable when they wanted to be. The only thing that changed that was Jarok's information, and it took over eighteen months to develop a prototype tachyon grid from that intelligence. Unification came less than three months later, so to assume that there was any reliable method of detecting Romulan intruders along the whole length of the zone is a bad idea. Face of the Enemy was a further fifteen months down the line by which time, probably spurred on by the Unifcation incident, the zone was a lot more heavily guarded.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Tiberius wrote:Honestly, I have no idea. But I'm not trying to figure out the validity of the Romulan's plan. I'll be perfectly happy to assume that the Romulans had some way around this (even though Geordi was able to determine that there were Romulan troops on those ships, even the number of them.)

Was able to determine or already knew? As I pointed out earlier, we don't know if Geordi's information came from the sensors or intelligence (or whether he simply scanned 2000 individuals and extrapolated that they were troops).

I'll assume you meant the Enterprise's sensors. That is the most logical explanation. The Enterprise scanned the Vulcan ships, detected 2000 romulan lifesigns and various weapons and whatever other gear they had.

If his knowledge came from intelligence (I assume you mean such as a spy in the Romulan government or something), then why did the spy only tell Geordi? Why wasn't there a fleet of Federation Starships waiting to meet them?

The whole extrapolating that they were troops is irrelevant, as the important point is that Geordi was able to get information on how many there were, not whether they were troops, or gardeners or whatever.

Well, I've assumed that there is a sensor net at the Border and it can detect a cloaked warbird crossing. After all, if it couldn't, there'd be cloaked warbirds crossing all the time. But if the warbird crossed the net at the same time as some easily detectable ships, then any disturbance caused by the cloaked warbird can be covered by saying it was the other ship.

Warbirds had been going back and forth across the border for years, only detectable when they wanted to be. The only thing that changed that was Jarok's information, and it took over eighteen months to develop a prototype tachyon grid from that intelligence. Unification came less than three months later, so to assume that there was any reliable method of detecting Romulan intruders along the whole length of the zone is a bad idea. Face of the Enemy was a further fifteen months down the line by which time, probably spurred on by the Unifcation incident, the zone was a lot more heavily guarded.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that the Federation basically left their border with the Romulans completely unguarded.

Tiberius wrote:I'll assume you meant the Enterprise's sensors. That is the most logical explanation. The Enterprise scanned the Vulcan ships, detected 2000 romulan lifesigns and various weapons and whatever other gear they had.

The whole extrapolating that they were troops is irrelevant, as the important point is that Geordi was able to get information on how many there were, not whether they were troops, or gardeners or whatever.

My suggestion is that they scanned the ships, detected 2000 Romulan/Vulcan lifesigns, may not have detected weapons or other equipment, and extrapolated that they were troops based on Spock's warning.

If his knowledge came from intelligence (I assume you mean such as a spy in the Romulan government or something), then why did the spy only tell Geordi? Why wasn't there a fleet of Federation Starships waiting to meet them?

I'm talking about the possibility that Spock inserted a data file adding additional detail and piggy-backed it on his warning transmission.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that the Federation basically left their border with the Romulans completely unguarded.

I'm not suggesting they did - the frequent presence of the E-D, presumably as part of a significant patrol fleet, demonstrates that. My argument is that they didn't have the technology to detect cloaked ships before Jarok revealed technical details of the latest cloaking technology.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Tiberius wrote:I'll assume you meant the Enterprise's sensors. That is the most logical explanation. The Enterprise scanned the Vulcan ships, detected 2000 romulan lifesigns and various weapons and whatever other gear they had.

The whole extrapolating that they were troops is irrelevant, as the important point is that Geordi was able to get information on how many there were, not whether they were troops, or gardeners or whatever.

My suggestion is that they scanned the ships, detected 2000 Romulan/Vulcan lifesigns, may not have detected weapons or other equipment, and extrapolated that they were troops based on Spock's warning.

Certainly possible. But also irrelevant, as the only issue is the number of people on board.

If his knowledge came from intelligence (I assume you mean such as a spy in the Romulan government or something), then why did the spy only tell Geordi? Why wasn't there a fleet of Federation Starships waiting to meet them?

I'm talking about the possibility that Spock inserted a data file adding additional detail and piggy-backed it on his warning transmission.

Again, possible, but I think unlikely. Spock would have to know where to find the information, get access to it, then attach it to the message. Then Geordi would have to get that separate message and decode it. It's possible, but the fact that there wasn't even a, "Commander, I'm detecting a data file piggy backed on Spock's transmission. It says that there are two thousand troops on board!"

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that the Federation basically left their border with the Romulans completely unguarded.

I'm not suggesting they did - the frequent presence of the E-D, presumably as part of a significant patrol fleet, demonstrates that. My argument is that they didn't have the technology to detect cloaked ships before Jarok revealed technical details of the latest cloaking technology.

If they couldn't detect cloaked ships, then what good was the presence of all the starships? The Romulans could cloak a fleet of warbird, send them to earth. Earth wouldn't stand a chance.