Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

In the real world
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by Deepcrush »

A tanker that has been destroyed in the area where 40% of the world's oil transit. If it was damaged by a mine, there is no way to be 100% sure that they are all cleared, so the risk remains. So every single tanker going in or out of the Strait would have to pay massive insurance premium, because no oil company wants to be stuck with that kind of liability.

I think you underestimate the world's (and the market's) capacity to panick when it comes to energy supply.
The problem is that this is all a worst case issue. Tankers are lost every year due to weather, pirates, wrecks... so on... None of which can be predicted and actively defended against. Yet, in spite of this you're claiming that a situation that could be monitored and controlled would end the world's oil economy. No, that is just crap.
Also, lay off the insult. You can argue your point without making derogative remarks.
While it may hurt your feelings there are three points to be considered. A, its not an insult but simply the truth. B, I don't care about your feelings. C, if you think that is my way of insulting you then its best you just leave now.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

Deepcrush wrote: The problem is that this is all a worst case issue. Tankers are lost every year due to weather, pirates, wrecks... so on... None of which can be predicted and actively defended against. Yet, in spite of this you're claiming that a situation that could be monitored and controlled would end the world's oil economy. No, that is just crap.
But weather, pirates, wreck, etc.. are all relatively general elements that can influence the whole transit system. In that case, it concerns only the ships transiting through the Ormuz Strait. There is going to be insurance premium specifically aimed at covering such contingency, wether the treath is still real or not.

And no war situation is perfectly monitored and controlled. When the missiles are going to start shooting, there is no way to determined with 100% accuracy if all mines layed have been removed. It's a matter of spreading fear and disrupting the flow, which will happen.

I haven't said it will end the world's oil economy, don't put false words into my mouth. I said it would cause havoc on the world's economy, cause by the sudden increase in oil prices, which will strongly impact the current fragile economic recovery we've seen in the past year.
Deepcrush wrote:While it may hurt your feelings there are three points to be considered. A, its not an insult but simply the truth. B, I don't care about your feelings. C, if you think that is my way of insulting you then its best you just leave now.
"Drama Queen" applies to somebody making a fuss over little things. I don't call an attack on the Ormuz Strait a little thing. Ergo, it's not a fact, but your (flawed) perception of the situation. Wether you just casually throw it as an insult or you genuinely believe that, calling me that had no impact of the direction of the conversation beside making you feel good my attacking me directly.

You have trouble about people not agreeing with your point of view (for good or bad reasons), and thu, you automatically start dissing them to feel better about it.

I don't really have my feeling hurt, it's more a matter of giving a non-sequitur statement in a conversation that tried to stick to fact or opinion on the topic itself. It's a proof of poor argumentation to try to sidetract the argument by attacking the arguer, not the argument.

And I don't really care how you act when you throw a tantrum, thank you very much. I'm interested in conversing with a rational Deepcrush, not the childish one.
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by Deepcrush »

SolkaTruesilver wrote:But weather, pirates, wreck, etc.. are all relatively general elements that can influence the whole transit system. In that case, it concerns only the ships transiting through the Ormuz Strait. There is going to be insurance premium specifically aimed at covering such contingency, wether the treath is still real or not.

And no war situation is perfectly monitored and controlled. When the missiles are going to start shooting, there is no way to determined with 100% accuracy if all mines layed have been removed. It's a matter of spreading fear and disrupting the flow, which will happen.

I haven't said it will end the world's oil economy, don't put false words into my mouth. I said it would cause havoc on the world's economy, cause by the sudden increase in oil prices, which will strongly impact the current fragile economic recovery we've seen in the past year.
The fact remains that even if someone wanted to mine the area, they would have to get passed the combined aggression of the whole planet. That's not going to happen, as counter even if it did happen. The economy wouldn't react to just a single lost ship.
SolkaTruesilver wrote:"Drama Queen" applies to somebody making a fuss over little things. I don't call an attack on the Ormuz Strait a little thing. Ergo, it's not a fact, but your (flawed) perception of the situation. Wether you just casually throw it as an insult or you genuinely believe that, calling me that had no impact of the direction of the conversation beside making you feel good my attacking me directly.
What you call something vs what it really is... makes you in fact a drama queen.
You have trouble about people not agreeing with your point of view (for good or bad reasons), and thu, you automatically start dissing them to feel better about it.
Wrong again, I have no problem with people who disagree with me. Opinions are the right of any living person.
I don't really have my feeling hurt, it's more a matter of giving a non-sequitur statement in a conversation that tried to stick to fact or opinion on the topic itself. It's a proof of poor argumentation to try to sidetract the argument by attacking the arguer, not the argument.
Of course it hurt your feelings, if it didn't you wouldn't make such a deal of it. My pointing out reality isn't a proof of poor debating, its proof that I don't give a shit about how you feel when I point said reality out. There's a minor difference which simply escapes your comprehension.
And I don't really care how you act when you throw a tantrum, thank you very much. I'm interested in conversing with a rational Deepcrush, not the childish one.
Considering everything up to this point has been rational minus your crying, I don't see what my nap-time issues have to do with this.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

Well, keep hugging those "facts", Deepcrush. The "fact" that I am a drama-queen over the world's economy precarious condition, and the risk involved in any conflict in the Ormuz strait. That I might beam making up those Chimaera. Because that is usually how you see reality: everything you state is the indiluted truth, other people would be stupid/ignorant/dramaqueen for disagreeing. You are quite the intellectual extremist.

Luckily for the World, many intelligence experts don't agree with your assessment of the importance of the threat represented by Ormuz. Please see the following article, by George Friedman, of Stratfor.
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100830 ... tions_iran

found on Stratfor's Website
By George Friedman

Public discussion of potential attacks on Iran's nuclear development sites is surging again. This has happened before. On several occasions, leaks about potential airstrikes have created an atmosphere of impending war. These leaks normally coincided with diplomatic initiatives and were designed to intimidate the Iranians and facilitate a settlement favorable to the United States and Israel. These initiatives have failed in the past. It is therefore reasonable to associate the current avalanche of reports with the imposition of sanctions and view it as an attempt to increase the pressure on Iran and either force a policy shift or take advantage of divisions within the regime.

My first instinct is to dismiss the war talk as simply another round of psychological warfare against Iran, this time originating with Israel. Most of the reports indicate that Israel is on the verge of attacking Iran. From a psychological-warfare standpoint, this sets up the good-cop/bad-cop routine. The Israelis play the mad dog barely restrained by the more sober Americans, who urge the Iranians through intermediaries to make concessions and head off a war. As I said, we have been here before several times, and this hasn't worked.

The worst sin of intelligence is complacency, the belief that simply because something has happened (or has not happened) several times before it is not going to happen this time. But each episode must be considered carefully in its own light and preconceptions from previous episodes must be banished. Indeed, the previous episodes might well have been intended to lull the Iranians into complacency themselves. Paradoxically, the very existence of another round of war talk could be intended to convince the Iranians that war is distant while covert war preparations take place. An attack may be in the offing, but the public displays neither confirm nor deny that possibility.


The Evolving Iranian Assessment

STRATFOR has gone through three phases in its evaluation of the possibility of war. The first, which was in place until July 2009, held that while Iran was working toward a nuclear weapon, its progress could not be judged by its accumulation of enriched uranium. While that would give you an underground explosion, the creation of a weapon required sophisticated technologies for ruggedizing and miniaturizing the device, along with a very reliable delivery system. In our view, Iran might be nearing a testable device but it was far from a deliverable weapon. Therefore, we dismissed war talk and argued that there was no meaningful pressure for an attack on Iran.

We modified this view somewhat in July 2009, after the Iranian elections and the demonstrations. While we dismissed the significance of the demonstrations, we noted close collaboration developing between Russia and Iran. That meant there could be no effective sanctions against Iran, so stalling for time in order for sanctions to work had no value. Therefore, the possibility of a strike increased.

But then Russian support stalled as well, and we turned back to our analysis, adding to it an evaluation of potential Iranian responses to any air attack. We noted three potential counters: activating Shiite militant groups (most notably Hezbollah), creating chaos in Iraq and blocking the Strait of Hormuz, through which 45 percent of global oil exports travel. Of the three Iranian counters, the last was the real "nuclear option." Interfering with the supply of oil from the Persian Gulf would raise oil prices stunningly and would certainly abort the tepid global economic recovery. Iran would have the option of plunging the world into a global recession or worse.

There has been debate over whether Iran would choose to do the latter or whether the U.S. Navy could rapidly clear mines. It is hard to imagine how an Iranian government could survive air attacks without countering them in some way. It is also a painful lesson of history that the confidence of any military force cannot be a guide to its performance. At the very least, there is a possibility that the Iranians could block the Strait of Hormuz, and that means the possibility of devastating global economic consequences. That is a massive risk for the United States to take, against an unknown probability of successful Iranian action. In our mind, it was not a risk that the United States could take, especially when added to the other Iranian counters. Therefore, we did not think the United States would strike.

Certainly, we did not believe that the Israelis would strike Iran alone. First, the Israelis are much less likely to succeed than the Americans would be, given the size of their force and their distance from Iran (not to mention the fact that they would have to traverse either Turkish, Iraqi or Saudi airspace). More important, Israel lacks the ability to mitigate any consequences. Any Israeli attack would have to be coordinated with the United States so that the United States could alert and deploy its counter-mine, anti-submarine and missile-suppression assets. For Israel to act without giving the United States time to mitigate the Hormuz option would put Israel in the position of triggering a global economic crisis. The political consequences of that would not be manageable by Israel. Therefore, we found an Israeli strike against Iran without U.S. involvement difficult to imagine.


The Current Evaluation


Our current view is that the accumulation of enough enriched uranium to build a weapon does not mean that the Iranians are anywhere close to having a weapon. Moreover, the risks inherent in an airstrike on its nuclear facilities outstrip the benefits (and even that assumes that the entire nuclear industry is destroyed in one fell swoop - an unsure outcome at best). It also assumes the absence of other necessary technologies. Assumptions of U.S. prowess against mines might be faulty, and so, too, could my assumption about weapon development. The calculus becomes murky, and one would expect all governments involved to be waffling.

There is, of course, a massive additional issue. Apart from the direct actions that Iran might make, there is the fact that the destruction of its nuclear capability would not solve the underlying strategic challenge that Iran poses. It has the largest military force in the Persian Gulf, absent the United States. The United States is in the process of withdrawing from Iraq, which would further diminish the ability of the United States to contain Iran. Therefore, a surgical strike on Iran's nuclear capability combined with the continuing withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq would create a profound strategic crisis in the Persian Gulf.

The country most concerned about Iran is not Israel, but Saudi Arabia. The Saudis recall the result of the last strategic imbalance in the region, when Iraq, following its armistice with Iran, proceeded to invade Kuwait, opening the possibility that its next intention was to seize the northeastern oil fields of Saudi Arabia. In that case, the United States intervened. Given that the United States is now withdrawing from Iraq, intervention following withdrawal would be politically difficult unless the threat to the United States was clear. More important, the Iranians might not give the Saudis the present Saddam Hussein gave them by seizing Kuwait and then halting. They might continue. They certainly have the military capacity to try.

In a real sense, the Iranians would not have to execute such a military operation in order to gain the benefits. The simple imbalance of forces would compel the Saudis and others in the Persian Gulf to seek a political accommodation with the Iranians. Strategic domination of the Persian Gulf does not necessarily require military occupation - as the Americans have abundantly demonstrated over the past 40 years. It merely requires the ability to carry out those operations.

The Saudis, therefore, have been far quieter - and far more urgent - than the Israelis in asking the United States to do something about the Iranians. The Saudis certainly do not want the United States to leave Iraq. They want the Americans there as a blocking force protecting Saudi Arabia but not positioned on Saudi soil. They obviously are not happy about Iran's nuclear efforts, but the Saudis see the conventional and nuclear threat as a single entity. The collapse of the Iran-Iraq balance of power has left the Arabian Peninsula in a precarious position.

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia did an interesting thing a few weeks ago. He visited Lebanon personally and in the company of the president of Syria. The Syrian and Saudi regimes are not normally friendly, given different ideologies, Syria's close relationship with Iran and their divergent interests in Lebanon. But there they were together, meeting with the Lebanese government and giving not very subtle warnings to Hezbollah. Saudi influence and money and the threat of Iran jeopardizing the Saudi regime by excessive adventurism seems to have created an anti-Hezbollah dynamic in Lebanon. Hezbollah is suddenly finding many of its supposed allies cooperating with some of its certain enemies. The threat of a Hezbollah response to an airstrike on Iran seems to be mitigated somewhat.


Eliminating Iranian Leverage In Hormuz


I said that there were three counters. One was Hezbollah, which is the least potent of the three from the American perspective. The other two are Iraq and Hormuz. If the Iraqis were able to form a government that boxed in pro-Iranian factions in a manner similar to how Hezbollah is being tentatively contained, then the second Iranian counter would be weakened. That would "just" leave the major issue - Hormuz.

The problem with Hormuz is that the United States cannot tolerate any risk there. The only way to control that risk is to destroy Iranian naval capability before airstrikes on nuclear targets take place. Since many of the Iranian mine layers would be small boats, this would mean an extensive air campaign and special operations forces raids against Iranian ports designed to destroy anything that could lay mines, along with any and all potential mine-storage facilities, anti-ship missile emplacements, submarines and aircraft. Put simply, any piece of infrastructure within a few miles of any port would need to be eliminated. The risk to Hormuz cannot be eliminated after the attack on nuclear sites. It must be eliminated before an attack on the nuclear sites. And the damage must be overwhelming.

There are two benefits to this strategy. First, the nuclear facilities aren't going anywhere. It is the facilities that are producing the enriched uranium and other parts of the weapon that must be destroyed more than any uranium that has already been enriched. And the vast bulk of those facilities will remain where they are even if there is an attack on Iran's maritime capabilities. Key personnel would undoubtedly escape, but considering that within minutes of the first American strike anywhere in Iran a mass evacuation of key scientists would be under way anyway, there is little appreciable difference between a first strike against nuclear sites and a first strike against maritime targets. (U.S. air assets are good, but even the United States cannot strike 100-plus targets simultaneously.)

Second, the counter-nuclear strategy wouldn't deal with the more fundamental problem of Iran's conventional military power. This opening gambit would necessarily attack Iran's command-and-control, air-defense and offensive air capabilities as well as maritime capabilities. This would sequence with an attack on the nuclear capabilities and could be extended into a prolonged air campaign targeting Iran's ground forces.

The United States is very good at gaining command of the air and attacking conventional military capabilities (see Yugoslavia in 1999). Its strategic air capability is massive and, unlike most of the U.S. military, underutilized. The United States also has substantial air forces deployed around Iran, along with special operations forces teams trained in penetration, evasion and targeting, and satellite surveillance. Far from the less-than-rewarding task of counterinsurgency in Afghanistan, going after Iran would be the kind of war the United States excels at fighting. No conventional land invasion, no boots-on-the-ground occupation, just a very thorough bombing campaign. If regime change happens as a consequence, great, but that is not the primary goal. Defanging the Iranian state is.

It is also the only type of operation that could destroy the nuclear capabilities (and then some) while preventing an Iranian response. It would devastate Iran's conventional military forces, eliminating the near-term threat to the Arabian Peninsula. Such an attack, properly executed, would be the worst-case scenario for Iran and, in my view, the only way an extended air campaign against nuclear facilities could be safely executed.

Just as Iran's domination of the Persian Gulf rests on its ability to conduct military operations, not on its actually conducting the operations, the reverse is also true. It is the capacity and apparent will to conduct broadened military operations against Iran that can shape Iranian calculations and decision-making. So long as the only threat is to Iran's nuclear facilities, its conventional forces remain intact and its counter options remain viable, Iran will not shift its strategy. Once its counter options are shut down and its conventional forces are put at risk, Iran must draw up another calculus.

In this scenario, Israel is a marginal player. The United States is the only significant actor, and it might not strike Iran simply over the nuclear issue. That's not a major U.S. problem. But the continuing withdrawal from Iraq and Iran's conventional forces are very much an American problem. Destroying Iran's nuclear capability is merely an added benefit.

Given the Saudi intervention in Lebanese politics, this scenario now requires a radical change in Iraq, one in which a government would be quickly formed and Iranian influence quickly curtailed. Interestingly, we have heard recent comments by administration officials asserting that Iranian influence has, in fact, been dramatically reduced. At present, such a reduction is not obvious to us, but the first step of shifting perceptions tends to be propaganda. If such a reduction became real, then the two lesser Iranian counter moves would be blocked and the U.S. offensive option would become more viable.


Internal Tension in Tehran


At this point, we would expect to see the Iranians recalculating their position, with some of the clerical leadership using the shifting sands of Lebanon against Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Indeed, there have been many indications of internal stress, not between the mythical democratic masses and the elite, but within the elite itself. This past weekend the Iranian speaker of the house attacked Ahmadinejad's handling of special emissaries. For what purpose we don't yet know, but the internal tension is growing.

The Iranians are not concerned about the sanctions. The destruction of their nuclear capacity would, from their point of view, be a pity. But the destruction of large amounts of their conventional forces would threaten not only their goals in the wider Islamic world but also their stability at home. That would be unacceptable and would require a shift in their general strategy.

From the Iranian point of view - and from ours - Washington's intentions are opaque. But when we consider the Obama administration's stated need to withdraw from Iraq, Saudi pressure on the United States not to withdraw while Iran remains a threat, Saudi moves against Hezbollah to split Syria from Iran and Israeli pressure on the United States to deal with nuclear weapons, the pieces for a new American strategy are emerging from the mist. Certainly the Iranians appear to be nervous. And the threat of a new strategy might just be enough to move the Iranians off dead center. If they don't, logic would dictate the consideration of a broader treatment of the military problem posed by Iran.



Read more: Rethinking American Options on Iran | STRATFOR
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
Posts: 9585
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: NY
Contact:

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by stitch626 »

Woah....

I can say right now, that is the longest single post I've seen on this board.

My low attention span kept me from getting past the first paragraph... is there a really short version?
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by Deepcrush »

SolkaTruesilver wrote:Well, keep hugging those "facts", Deepcrush. The "fact" that I am a drama-queen over the world's economy precarious condition, and the risk involved in any conflict in the Ormuz strait. That I might beam making up those Chimaera. Because that is usually how you see reality: everything you state is the indiluted truth, other people would be stupid/ignorant/dramaqueen for disagreeing. You are quite the intellectual extremist.

Luckily for the World, many intelligence experts don't agree with your assessment of the importance of the threat represented by Ormuz. Please see the following article, by George Friedman, of Stratfor.
Wow, you cry as much as the chakat did. :lol:
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by Deepcrush »

SolkaTruesilver wrote:George Friedman snip
Okay, so its the same worries as before now with... nothing new. That impacts our ability to secure an area that we already have secured how??? :laughroll:

Look, I get you're not the brightest but really, at least pretend to bring something important along.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

stitch626 wrote:Woah....

I can say right now, that is the longest single post I've seen on this board.

My low attention span kept me from getting past the first paragraph... is there a really short version?
Well, George Friedman (Stratfor's CEO/President) goes into details regarding the previous rumors of imminent strike against Iran by Israel, stating that it might have been used as pressure point in negociation with Iran. The recent rumors might be the same thing. However, he notes recent changes in the political dynamics of the region that might indicate something more serious.

He goes into detail about the risks involved in striking the Gulf, and states that in the case of failed neutralisation of Iran's naval military assets, it would be disastrous for the world's economy. So any strikes made would be on a large scale, and done by the USA, and no one else, as you need to disable more than a hundred targets extremely quickly. Even the largest Air Force on the planet - the USA AF - don't have the capacity to conduct a hundred simultaneous strikes.

Any strikes made against Iran will make Iran retaliate through 3 ways:
- Hizbullah strikes against Israel
- Military strikes (covert or overt) against Iraq's military and U.S. assets in Iraq
- Mining/striking at the Gulf of Ormuz

But recently, the Saudi Arabian King visited Lebanon with Syria's President, showing some signs of them trying to get closer, which could mean that Hizbullah would become more isolated, and thu, less able to strike at Israel. Which weakens Iran's capacity to use that option.

Also, Iran's capacity to destabilise Iraq through over and covert means is a real worry for the american administration. So, any military strikes against Iran would also have to be quite extensive in it's effort to completely neutralise Iran's conventional military. The reason they would feel pressured to strike and cripple Iran's military is because of the balance of power worries in the region. Iraq always acted as a counterpoint against Iran's influence in the Gulf, which is why the USA let S.H. in power after the 91 war. After the Iraq conquest of 03, however, that balance had to be filled by the USA military.

If the USA withdraw simply, then Iran becomes the sole military superpower of the block, which makes Saudi Arabia & other Gulf countries quite worried. Iran can effectively steamroll them. So neutralising Iran's conventional military would go a long way toward appeasing their allies in the region and protecting the gains made in Iraq. Without conventional military available to help the Shia insurgent in Iraq, it might be possible to contain any Iran-leaning factions in the Iraqi government, containing Iran's influence through the Arab world.

So the only remaining danger is also the worst: the Ormuz Strait. It would be the #1 priority for any military strike against Iran, to protect that Strait, otherwise, you cause serious damage to the World's economy (and the USA's, obviously).

The funny part is, the Nuclear option is pretty much a second thought. So is any concern over a regime change. Neutralising Iran's military and influence would fill the USA's strategic needs, and neutralising the naval assets of Iran would prevent any major disaster.
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

Deepcrush wrote:
SolkaTruesilver wrote:George Friedman snip
Okay, so its the same worries as before now with... nothing new. That impacts our ability to secure an area that we already have secured how??? :laughroll:

Look, I get you're not the brightest but really, at least pretend to bring something important along.
It doesn't impact the ability to strike. The ability to strike never really was the issue, why are you making that up?

the Ormuz Strait Risk that I have been mentioning and that you have been denying is not a matter of operational impedement, but a matter of consequence. It will not prevent a strike, it will simply punish the USA/World for striking, if they fail at neutralising Iran's naval assets quickly ennough.

Again, as I stated about 3 times, it's a matter of Risk vs. Reward. Risk = Sum[% Occurance x $ Consequence]. Even if the USA have a 99% chance of succeeding at neutralising Iran's naval asset, the consequence of failing would be disastrous.

What you seem to deny is the fact that it would be disastrous, which I find ludicrous. Oil market is naturally fickle and volatile, based on a very delicate equilibrium of supply and demand, ruled by speculations. A reduction of the freight volume in the Strait, any reduction, would have dire consequence. It's not a single oil rig we're talking about. We talk about 40% of the oil's supply, + Qatar's natural gas. That's a lot.
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by Deepcrush »

Problem is that all of that requires that Iran start a war with the entire planet which isn't really their plan.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Any action taken against Iran will have the possibility of the Iranians mining the strait taken into account. Thus any action will be preceeded by US forces keeping tabs on the Iranian Navy. Indeed, some of the very first shots fired in a hypothetical war would be aimed at crippling Iran's navy and port facilities, preventing them from mining the straits to any real effect.

Additionaly, Iran also has to take regional politics into account. Mining the region is nothing less than a declaration of war against all the countries that border it, and all the countries that they ship to. Is that really a good thing to do just because the US decided to level their new nuclear power plant? Hell no. Iran will be doing as much as it can to prevent such an even from escalating into a full-scale invasion. Trying to kick the US and Europe in the balls and cutting off the main source of income for their neighbours is not a good way to avoid escalation. Even if the US/EU didn't decide to smack Iran even more for such an action, it's quite likely that other Middle Eastern countries would.

Finally, I have my doubts that it would really be such a devastating tactic even if it were used. Yes, it would halt shipping. But for how long?

As soon as Iran is seen to be mining the strait every navy in the region, along with the US Navy and any Air Force units based in Iraq, will immediately begin turning the entire Iranian Navy into one big flaming ruin. That alone would probably take merely the best part of two or three days. After that it's a matter of getting a minesweeper in to clear a safe passage through the mines. I'd be very surprised if nations in the region didn't already have minesweepers of their own standing by in case of just such an incident. I'd be surprised if the strait was innacessable for more than a week.

So just what would be the results of oil shipping being delayed for a week? To be perfectly honest, I doubt the average person in Europe or North America would even notice it. Keep in mind that petrol companies like Shell need people to keep buying petrol for their cars. They litteraly can't just ramp the prices way up because the vast majority of people would just say "fuck it, I'm walking". They'd certainly raise prices somewhat, but nothing major, and just shoulder the hit to their profits for the duration of the incident. It certainly wouldn't herald the economic collapse of oil-poor nations. At most it might force them to open up their oil reserves until shipping can resume.

Also, IIRC Iran actualy did try mining the strait of Hormuz back in the late 80's. I think it ended with the Iranian Navy getting smacked around and shipping suffering only minor delays.

So, to summarise, while it's certainly a tactic, it's one that Iran would be utterly insane to ever try using, as it would do little more than result in their own utter destruction and the hostility of all neighbouring nations.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:49 am

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by SolkaTruesilver »

Deepcrush wrote:Problem is that all of that requires that Iran start a war with the entire planet which isn't really their plan.
Thanks for the nice reply :)
Nevermind that..

Yhea. But on the other hand, if you mine that Strait in retaliation of a USA attack, the rest of the planet is the least of your worry. I think the US would defeat the rest of the world in an aerial struggle. :oops:

And Russia would dance with joy anyway, as their GBP would increase due to increase energy sales price. there is a reason why Russia is Iran's main nuclear backer.

Iran is done for anyway the moment the U.S. attack. So their strategy is to make sure the U.S. gets dragged down as far as possible in the event of such attack. Not really in term of military advantage, but simply as a deterrent. "You will regret attacking us". That was the mentality of MAD during the Cold War: "If you try this on us, we will drag your in hell with us!".

Now, Iran only has one such trump card. It's not as big as nukes, obviously. But it's still a possibility, and such possibility is very present in everyone's mind, regardless of the contingencies prepared to stop them. Just because the U.S. would develop an effect anti-nuke system doesn't mean they would be eager to provoke ICBM launch on a fickle.

Sionna, your post is... err... consequent. gimme some time to reply to it please. at least, the parts I haven't already.
Sionnach Glic
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 26014
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:58 pm
Location: Poblacht na hÉireann, Baile Átha Cliath

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by Sionnach Glic »

No problem. It took me long enough to write that in the first place, so I'm not going to rush you for a response. :)
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
Posts: 15548
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Iran Unveils New Unmaned Drone Bomber

Post by Captain Seafort »

SolkaTruesilver wrote:Iran is done for anyway the moment the U.S. attack.
No, it isn't, any more than Hussein's Iraq was "done for" when the Israelis bombed Osirac.
So their strategy is to make sure the U.S. gets dragged down as far as possible in the event of such attack. Not really in term of military advantage, but simply as a deterrent. "You will regret attacking us". That was the mentality of MAD during the Cold War: "If you try this on us, we will drag your in hell with us!".
Bollocks - Ahmedwhatshisface isn't stupid, no leader of any country is, otherwise they wouldn't be the leader. He will not react to mere air strikes with a response guaranteed to bring the US military (and most of the planet) down on him like a ton of bricks Even if he did have a sudden mental breakdown and try it, Khameni wouldn't let him. Continuing to run a country with a few large smoking holes in it is greatly superior to a cell or a grave.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
Post Reply