Ship of the week: Negh’Var

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:51 pm

To me the KDF has always held a very well balanced fleet. They build ships to purpose and need, but almost always with cost in mind.

As to my 60/30/10 count. That was meant for the fleet numbers. Even with 60% of the fleet being BoP's, I wouldn't expect the cost to run more then 30%. The Vor'cha is going to cost about the same as its number count shows. My biggest concern was the Negh. This is a very costly ship to build and maintain. Also, I since I'm looking into production in large numbers then I would want a large part of the budget to flow to these ships.

Thoughts on cost (This is best guess for the most part.)

The extreme numbers of BoP seen tells us that this ship is both cheap and easy to produce. At keeping 60% overall fleet being made up of such ships I was thinking that I would factor about 30% of the total budget to them. Vor'cha class also seems to be a fairly numorous design, 30% of the total budget would hopefully produce 30% of the fleet. Both the BoP and Vor'cha budgets are a little flexible so I'm not to worried for them. The Negh'var is the real problem I had to worry about. The BoP could always be redesigned and I'm not saying it would have to be the same as the BoP we know now. The Vor'cha again is a good medium cruiser and with just basic upgrades would make a good heavy cruiser. This I've said before.

When I first thought about the Negh'var, I had thought about producing only 5% of the fleets numbers from this class. This would have been an easy pace to match and keep in line. It would also require a much smaller cost per the class's overall run. I had thought that it would cost as little as 10% or maybe as much as 15% of the total budget. When running my theory through a mental battle I came across a huge problem very quickly. Having so few battleships in the fleet would make the KDF so out gunned by the UFP and Dominion that it would almost be funny! When upgrading the number to 10% of the fleet total this problem was mostly fixed. It did however seem to my mind that the fleet was still slightly undergunned for what it could be. I cam with the idea of upgrading the Vor'cha armor and weapon ratings including replacing the the forward disrupter with a single MK 18. This would give the ship a good hammer shot when needed and a great deal of fire for the fleet as a whole (Though I think it would most likely have a slow rate of fire). My new thoughts on the 10% of the fleet being Negh's, I have increased their part of the total fleet budget to 40%. I'll explain of course.

I have given over 40% of the budget due to the need of a large numbers of large ships that the KE is not used to building. I was also thinking of the cost to crew and maintain such ships. I am of the thought that since the Negh needs as many as 3 times the crew & size that this would also add to the growing cost. Again the 40% will also help prevent any trouble in the near future of over cost.

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:10 pm

Again, that makes sense, esp. bearing in mind that the more you build, the less cost per unit. R&D, tooling up production lines, etc., only have to be paid once, no matter how many you eventually build.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:14 pm

I played this out in my head over lunch. I kept thinking about my rootbeer when I was trying to work out the cost factors the first time around. Thats most likely why I had to do them a second time.

KuvahMagh · Post by **KuvahMagh** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:17 pm

The Klingons could also do a selective refit of the Vor'cha, leaving some with the "normal" specs while uprating some to fit the role of "Heavy Cruiser".

The D-12 designation could also be the Federation Name for them, similar to the NATO Reporting Name for Weapons Systems, Vehicles, etc produced by Warsaw Pact Members/Non-Aligned Nations; no basis in cannon but it is possible, could explain why some have Klingon names and others seemingly don't.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:24 pm

I think it would be silly to just "Leave" some of the Vor'chas alone. The Ship is fast, well armed and fairly well armored. Upgrading the engines, armor and weapons you would be able to field a well costed heavy cruiser that is still able to keep up with light and medium cruisers. Also, the KDF doesn't need a medium cruiser that in 15 years will count as a light cruiser. They need a heavy cruiser that in 15 years could still act as a medium or heavy cruiser. If you want to build a fast attack cruiser then I would look into building a number of D'tai's for special uses or needs. Other then that, I just as soon stick to the upgrades. That added to the fact that the Vor'chas are already able to be mass produced makes them perfect for the new role.

KuvahMagh · Post by **KuvahMagh** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:33 pm

True, but do they have the resources to produce such a Fleet and upgrade the Vor'cha Class completely, they took alot of damage and from what we have seen in the past they do not move quickly, the BoP, while a good design has remained, albeit in refitted format, as their main frontline vessel since the TOS-Movie era. Add to that that at the end of TUC it was generally believed that they could no longer afford to keep up the War Fleet, they already seem to be slowly sliding towards a Second Class Power.

Obviously something has changed but has it changed enough that they are able to keep the BoP up to date compared to their neighbors, especially if the Romulans remain on the scene. Refit all of their existing Vor'Cha Fleet along with constructing a considerable number of Negh'Var Class BB? I realize this would happen over time but that is a very expensive goal even assuming that they didn't go through a 'rust out' period between TUC and TNG/DS9. All of that of course assumes that the Council works with Martok, they may have embraced him in the begining but what do they think of this new warmer relationship between the RSE and the Feds as signalled in Nemesis, I imagine they would be putting some hard questions to him even if he is a War Hero.

I'm not saying your wrong or trying to debate with you, I'm just saying that I don't see them having those kinds of resources at this point.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:58 pm

I'm not saying your wrong or trying to debate with you, I'm just saying that I don't see them having those kinds of resources at this point.

Dude, if you don't argue then things get boring. Besides, I like to argue / fight / whatever else.

I understand fully where you're looking from. This was the very reason I never said that they have to build a certain number of each class but build by ratio. The resouces open for use would be spilt and 60/30/10 would come into play. The KE is also far from a second power, though they are hurting very badly. Another thing is that the whole peace between the UFP and the RSE in truth works in favor of the KE. The RSE won't risk war with the UFP's new fleet and they can't attack the KE because the UFP would come racing to the KE aid.

The RSE is now in the process of doing a complete remake of their fleet. They can't risk war with anyone right now. The RSE and the KE are in the same boat. The Great Houses of the KE know this full well, they also know that they couldn't hope to face Martok who has the support of not just most the Houses but the people and the KDF. The KE needs about 20 years to fully rebuild itself, if they stay close to the UFP then by the end of that they will be stronger then ever. Something like this would appeal to any Klingon.

I read somewhere years ago that the KE begins to come apart about 50 years after the Dominion War. The Great Houses lose their power hold since most of the KDF sides with House Martok. A nasty civil war blows out but ends very quickly. The royal lines fall and the people begin to grow much like earth did after WWII. Birth rate increase and economic growth builds faster then anyone can control. Though still called an Empire, the KE becomes more like a Republic. In 2565, they sign on to the UFP Charter un a "Challange" that the KE couldn't do what the starfleet does.

Even if this doesnt' happen. The KE can't do anything until it's repaired its losses. 10 years at the very least as far as I care to see it.

KuvahMagh · Post by **KuvahMagh** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:25 am

The closest thing we have to Canon Evidence for the size of the Klingon Fleet is 1,500 (When it Rains), assuming he is not rounding too much and assuming he is referring to the ENTIRE Fleet then by your ratio of 60/30/10 it would mean 900 BoP, 450 Vor'Cha and 150 Negh'Var.

That may not seem too unreasonable but when you also consider that according to DITL Maps (I use them out of simplicity, the fact that I have seen no others that can claim to be more accurate as well as the accessibility to others) the Klingon Empire does not directly border either the Cardassian Empire/Union or the Breen, nor come anywhere near it in relative terms, that they would keep their entire Fleet along that Border even in the middle of a Major War unlikely at best. They would have to keep some ships back to protect against other threats, what size this group would be is unclear.

Although it is known that those numbers would include a few obsoletes which had been reactivated for the War I don't really believe this is enough to change the outcome in a serious way.

The KE is also far from a second power, though they are hurting very badly.

That is essentially what I said, they are on their way to becoming one and if they don't do something fast they will become one.

Another thing is that the whole peace between the UFP and the RSE in truth works in favor of the KE. The RSE won't risk war with the UFP's new fleet and they can't attack the KE because the UFP would come racing to the KE aid.

I believe you misunderstand what I was getting at. What I meant when I referenced the Rom/Fed relationship is that such a relationship could push the Klingons away for a number of different reasons;

1) The Rom/Kling have generally been mortal enemies with only a few breaks, I don't think they would take kindly to the Feds crawling into bed, especially if they are not included in future negotiations/treaties, which would depend on the willingness of the Romulans to involve a mortal enemy.

2) The Klingons could fear being pushed out as the major partner and ally to the Fed in favor of the Romulans, you could essentially see a reversal of powers, which could in tern lead to more 'nationalistic' thinking within the Empire and a greater focus on the rebuilding of its Military Capabilities to counter the new threat, percieved or real.

The RSE is now in the process of doing a complete remake of their fleet.

I wouldn't go that far, we can reasonably assume that they will begin to build more of the Norexan along with the possibility of other, smaller ships to augment the Warbird but I believe the Warbird will survive because of the sheer numbers, there must be a few out there since it seems to be the only Warship they operate, along with the sheer resources and technology put into it, despite it lacking against the GCS and Sov it is still an advanced ship and has its uses.

If you meant that they are rebuilding their numbers then I would have to agree with you, the Warbird may be impressive but it sure took a beating during the War.

The Great Houses of the KE know this full well, they also know that they couldn't hope to face Martok who has the support of not just most the Houses but the people and the KDF

This goes back to my earlier point about the Fed/Rom relationship, if his supporters begin to think either of those options then he could loose their support, there was already talk of having difficulty gaining the favour of the Council when he took the position, if his support begins to crack he may be no longer able to hold it together.

Like you said, no matter what happens they can't do anything until they have rebuilt themselves in someway.

Post by **Mikey** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:46 am

We're missing another factor: even IF Martok loses his position or the power of public opinion, until that time he will be bringing the KE closer to the UFP, not farther away. And the UFP, of course, can't turn down any kind of chance to act charitably/tie someone to their apron strings.

Duskofdead · Post by **Duskofdead** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:53 am

The closest thing we have to Canon Evidence for the size of the Klingon Fleet is 1,500 (When it Rains), assuming he is not rounding too much and assuming he is referring to the ENTIRE Fleet then by your ratio of 60/30/10 it would mean 900 BoP, 450 Vor'Cha and 150 Negh'Var.

I believe the implication in the episode is that 1,500 ships will be capable of combat and refitted to handle the Breen energy weapon. Not that the total Klingon fleet was 1,500 ships.

mlsnoopy · Post by **mlsnoopy** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:04 am

The closest thing we have to Canon Evidence for the size of the Klingon Fleet is 1,500 (When it Rains), assuming he is not rounding too much and assuming he is referring to the ENTIRE Fleet then by your ratio of 60/30/10 it would mean 900 BoP, 450 Vor'Cha and 150 Negh'Var.

The number 150 Negh'Var is interesting. Its very high. And that is with only a 1500 fleet. Where as the Klingon fleet can easalie number betwen 5000 to 10000 ships. That would mean that Klingons should have betwen 500-1000 Negh'Vars. Only the Romulans had huge numbers of big ships, where as Sf only builed 6+2+x of its biggest ships. Where the 60/30/10 ratio sounds greate, when you put it into perspective, you realize that 10%for the Negh'Var is just to high.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:23 pm

I knwo this is non canon now and cant be taken in fact but we see in that ENT episode that the Klingons join the Federation.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:37 pm

From what we've seen, time travel seems to work by sending you into an alternate, but very similar, universe. It's possible that in that universe teh Feds and Klingons weren't too hostile, but I simply can't see that happening in 'our' universe.

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:39 pm

That universe was the same as ours wasnt it? It was the final war vs the sphere builders. Thus it shows that the Klingons are at least possible members. It shows that their warrior mentality doesnt prevent them being members.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:51 pm

I can't remember the episode that well, so I can't really comment on it.
I will however point out that the Klingon mentality would be completely against giving up their empire to join the "weak" UFP.