The potential for refits

[m52nickerson]

The Defiant was built for fighting the Borg but we never saw the Akira until the Dominion war.

...and we don't see the Defiant until right before the war, that does not mean it was designed during that time.

Doesn't matter. That Battleship's array is going to do a lot more hurt then that fighter's array will.

It would depend on how much power the smaller ship can generate and how much of that can be used for the phaser instead of other systems. Larger ships have larger power plants, but they also have high power needs.

What do you think will fail first? 12'' plate on a battleship or 2'' plate on an attack ship. That little ship only has an advantage if you can first have plenty of numbers and and be able to survive the return fire. If that little ship can't survive the return it's going to get then it's just f***ed.

The 12" plate if it is hit in the same spot repeatedly. Yes there is a point of no return in size match ups.

Good thing most battleships have more then one gun.

.....but they are still worthless if you can't bring them to bear.

[Deepcrush]

we never saw the Akira until the Dominion war.

True, but the registries do suggest that it's quite an old design.

I wouldn't doubt they've had the idea around for a while now. The Akira isn't a small ship. She's just not a huge ship. But I'd take a fair bet that with war coming against the Dominion that turning out Akiras would be a lot easier.

[Captain Seafort]

It would depend on how much power the smaller ship can generate and how much of that can be used for the phaser instead of other systems. Larger ships have larger power plants, but they also have high power needs.

For what? Gravity, heating, etc are minor considerations compared to the big guns.

The 12" plate if it is hit in the same spot repeatedly. Yes there is a point of no return in size match ups.

The question was "which will fail first?" Certainly you'll be able to get through the thicker plate eventually, but a battleships gun would punch through 2" plate with ease.

but they are still worthless if you can't bring them to bear.

Until the enemy ship nips round to the other side and you can still keep shooting at it.

[Deepcrush]

Still does not mean you get the full power.

And why wouldn't an array be able to use its full power setting?

The smaller ship could concentrate on a certain section of the larger ship. Shields can be re-enforced to a point. What happens is you effectily have the smaller ship bringing all its weapons to bear while the larger one is reduced to a fracton of it's self.

I take it your plan is that the larger ship isn't going to be shooting back? Very clever of you. Too bad most people won't stick to that plan of yours.

If it is just as simple as putting more power to that array, or there are no upper limits to how much an array can handle.

Again it doesnt' matter. If there is a limit to how much power per shot then it just recharges that much faster. Plus that leaves more power for the shields.

The type XII's phaser most likely take up more internal space then the type X so you may not be able to do it with out totaly changing supporting structurs. QTL may not fit, nor the shield generators. Ripping out and changing support structures is most likely not an easy thing.

Why wouldn't this work? The internal space isn't a problem on the GCS. The Type Xs vs XIIs shouldn't be a problem seeing how a smaller ship can carry them without trouble. The QTLs seem to be different but not bigger then the PTLs. Since the Defiant can carry 4 QTLs as well as the Lakota. The GCS being given two QTLs isn't hard to see.

Not building larger ships during the war does make sense.

Thats what we've been trying to tell you.

[Deepcrush]

...and we don't see the Defiant until right before the war, that does not mean it was designed during that time.

Meaningless, we know about the Defiant because Sisko told us about it. Plus Kira's statement that the UFP doesn't build warships where Sisko replied that the Borg inspired the Defiant and the Dominion has pushed combat designs into production.

It would depend on how much power the smaller ship can generate and how much of that can be used for the phaser instead of other systems. Larger ships have larger power plants, but they also have high power needs.

Again, meaningless. Those power needs would be factored in.

The 12" plate if it is hit in the same spot repeatedly. Yes there is a point of no return in size match ups.

Again, meaningless. You're dreams of a ship that just stands there and gets shot doesn't work in the real world.

.....but they are still worthless if you can't bring them to bear.

Again, meaningless seeing how fast we've seen even a GCS spin on dime. Plus those extra arrays are there. Seeing they'll be shooting as well.

[m52nickerson]

For what? Gravity, heating, etc are minor considerations compared to the big guns.

The larger shields, larger engines, more powerful integrate fields.........

The question was "which will fail first?" Certainly you'll be able to get through the thicker plate eventually, but a battleships gun would punch through 2" plate with ease.

Depending on the weapons and the composite of the armor.

Until the enemy ship nips round to the other side and you can still keep shooting at it.

Why would it have to do that?

[m52nickerson]

And why wouldn't an array be able to use its full power setting?

You would see the full power for that weapon, that does not mean it would be equal to the output of all the weapons.

I take it your plan is that the larger ship isn't going to be shooting back? Very clever of you. Too bad most people won't stick to that plan of yours.

Never said that. It will be shooting back, just with a small amount of its total weapons.

Again it doesnt' matter. If there is a limit to how much power per shot then it just recharges that much faster. Plus that leaves more power for the shields.

....and over heats much faster. Yes more power to the shields, but still not as good as a ship that has the maneuverability to dictate what they expose to the enemy.

Why wouldn't this work? The internal space isn't a problem on the GCS. The Type Xs vs XIIs shouldn't be a problem seeing how a smaller ship can carry them without trouble. The QTLs seem to be different but not bigger then the PTLs. Since the Defiant can carry 4 QTLs as well as the Lakota. The GCS being given two QTLs isn't hard to see.

Just because smaller ships were designed with the XII in mind does not mean it would be a easy, or possible swap in to the GCS. Support structures may have to be moved, more or large plasma conduits run.

The Lakota was a complete refit, much like the massive refit of the Original Enterprise.

Thats what we've been trying to tell you.

I have not been arguing about what was produced during the war, but when those smaller ships were designed.

Meaningless, we know about the Defiant because Sisko told us about it. Plus Kira's statement that the UFP doesn't build warships where Sisko replied that the Borg inspired the Defiant and the Dominion has pushed combat designs into production.

As I said, it was designed before the Dominion were on the radar. If bigger is better why not design a super ship that could take on a Borg Cube? It is not like they were known to send multiply ships.

Again, meaningless. Those power needs would be factored in.

Far from meaning less. Yes they would be factored in, but that does not mean they would have enough power to to feed uber weapons. For most things you do reach points of diminishing returns.

Again, meaningless. You're dreams of a ship that just stands there and gets shot doesn't work in the real world.

My point exactly. Super large ships would seem to be sitting still when compared to smaller more maneuverable ships.

Again, meaningless seeing how fast we've seen even a GCS spin on dime. Plus those extra arrays are there. Seeing they'll be shooting as well.

Yes using its warp engines to facilitate that turn, how long could they keep that up? Does that help with attacks from below, or above?

[Captain Seafort]

The larger shields, larger engines, more powerful integrate fields.

The first scales to area, whereas power scales roughly to volume, the second aren't necessary if you trade mobility for firepower and protection, and the third can be rerouted to weapons and shields at slow speed.

Depending on the weapons and the composite of the armor.

For all known composites, battleship guns would punch through 2" plate like it wasn't there, as would most cruiser guns for that matter.

Why would it have to do that?

Maybe because some idiots think that a battleship with more than one gun is useless.

[Captain Seafort]

Never said that. It will be shooting back, just with a small amount of its total weapons.

Even a fraction of a battleship's total armament would be far more destructive than that of a smaller ship. At the River Plate, Graf Spee wrecked HMS Exeter in short order, despite having to split her fire between two groups of attackers, and suffered only minor damage in return. And she was only a big heavy cruiser.

and over heats much faster.

Bigger guns also mean bigger cooling systems.

Yes more power to the shields, but still not as good as a ship that has the maneuverability to dictate what they expose to the enemy.

Bollocks. A ship without the power to hurt her opponent is useless in battle, regardless of her ability to dictate the range.

Just because smaller ships were designed with the XII in mind does not mean it would be a easy, or possible swap in to the GCS. Support structures may have to be moved, more or large plasma conduits run.

Nonetheless, it's doable, as shown by both the E-nil and the Cavour and Doria refits.

I have not been arguing about what was produced during the war, but when those smaller ships were designed.

When those smaller ships were designed they were either the first true warship Starfleet produced (the Defiant) or they already had a battleship, albeit a badly designed one - the GCS.

As I said, it was designed before the Dominion were on the radar. If bigger is better why not design a super ship that could take on a Borg Cube? It is not like they were known to send multiply ships.

As I've pointed out several times, the Defiant was Starfleet's first single-role warship, and they had problems with her. Until those design problems had been sorted out, proceding to larger designs would have been foolish.

Far from meaning less. Yes they would be factored in, but that does not mean they would have enough power to to feed uber weapons. For most things you do reach points of diminishing returns.

If they reach the limit of what sort of power feed the weapons can take, then they can add more weapons, increasing overall firepower while remaining within limits for individual arrays.

My point exactly. Super large ships would seem to be sitting still when compared to smaller more maneuverable ships.

Correct. So what?

[Coalition]

I wouldn't doubt they've had the idea around for a while now. The Akira isn't a small ship. She's just not a huge ship. But I'd take a fair bet that with war coming against the Dominion that turning out Akiras would be a lot easier.

What if the Akira was part of Commander Shelby's anti-Borg project? Since it is larger than a Defiant, it would take longer to build. So the Defiants are finished first and sent out for testing, and the Akiras built and modified based on the results. They had no guarantee that the Borg would only send one ship, so they had to design a fleet that could handle two. Worst case = two at the same time. So you get a fleet designed to focus heavy fire upon large immobile targets, and then the Dominion arrives with nimble Attack Fighters. Rather annoying.

You'd have a similar problem with building larger ships during the Dominion War - they just might take too long. WW2 lasted long enough for the United States to build carriers out the wazoo, but the Dominion War only lasted about a year and a half, IIRC. Combine that with the original 3 Galaxies taking a total of 13 years to build (for 4 year per). Assuming proper construction is half that length, and you get 2 years per GCS. So Spacedock and other shipyards might have laid down new GCS (war or otherwise) and Sovereign class ships, but the Dominion War ended before the ships were finished.

Existing GCS hulls were likely modified to war standards (or combat capability) since the Federation was getting its butt kicked.

Not sure what the acceleration factor would be for wartime construction (aka no more of the working when it is comfortable, 'you work on the ship now'). If double, that means GCS could be turned out in 1 year, assuming the Breen raid didn't pop the nearly completed hulls. Also annoying.

[Tsukiyumi]

The larger shields, larger engines, more powerful integrate fields.

The first scales to area, whereas power scales roughly to volume, the second aren't necessary if you trade mobility for firepower and protection, and the third can be rerouted to weapons and shields at slow speed.

The problem with trading mobility for protection is that it gives a more maneuverable opponent a greater ability to choose engagements.

Of course, I agree with you; an armada of guys with AK-47s and RPGs in speedboats wouldn't last long against even a destroyer.

[Granitehewer]

i am tickled by the notion of the light and maneuverable vessel somehow outpacing the larger one, rendering the bulk of the greater vessels' guns impotent, this is less inspired by real world and more inspired by building overwhelming hordes of tankettes in 'command and conquer:red alert' me thinks.
Afterall the larger vessels have been seen to have impressive fire arcs and could well have more sophisticated target acquisition software and redundancies.
I would have paid good money to watch the yamato or musashi take on a solitary frigate or destroyer, then the japanese could have learnt their lesson and instead of building ships with displacement of 68-72,000 tons could have saved their resources and focused on an equal number of vessels with a displacement of less than 12,000 tons in their role.

[Reliant121]

Well look at a GCS, specifically the Dorsal saucer. She only has one big array there. Why not a second set of smaller arrays.

The point of a big ship is her weapons are so much more powerful than a smaller one, that a single shot might well be equal to 5 of the smaller units. So you only need a small amount of the big guns. What your saying is that a light cruiser is superior to a battleship cause she may be capable of carrying more light guns compared to a battleships less much bigger guns.

[Sionnach Glic]

You would see the full power for that weapon, that does not mean it would be equal to the output of all the weapons.

So? Even that would be enough to seriously damage a smaller ship.

Never said that. It will be shooting back, just with a small amount of its total weapons.

And with those small amount of its total weapons it can still obliterate a smaller ship.

....and over heats much faster.

Yeah, too bad we couldn't just shove in some extra cooling units.
Oh, wait....we could.

Yes more power to the shields, but still not as good as a ship that has the maneuverability to dictate what they expose to the enemy.

So? The battleship will likely have better range with its guns than a smaller ship. Therefore a smaller ship would have to take numerous hits on its prow while closing before it could turn hard and protect itself. And then it would take more hits to its aft as it retreats out of the battleship's greater range. Whereas with its greater shield strenght a battleship could take entire barrages from the smaller ship and not even flinch.
Greater maneouverability is nice, but if your enemy is superior in every other respect then you're screwed.

Just because smaller ships were designed with the XII in mind does not mean it would be a easy, or possible swap in to the GCS. Support structures may have to be moved, more or large plasma conduits run.

So? No one said it'd be quick or easy. The fact remains that it is a possibility.

Of course, it'd be far smarter to just design a battleship from the ground-up instead of trying to convert the bloated whale that is the GCS into a battleship, but that's irrelevant for now.

The Lakota was a complete refit, much like the massive refit of the Original Enterprise.

Correct. As is this hypothetical GCS refit.

I have not been arguing about what was produced during the war, but when those smaller ships were designed.

Those smaller ships were designed as pure warships, the GCS wasn't. Therefore the spaceframe of the GCS would be far larger than a dedicated warship, even if all the civilian equipment was stripped out.

As I said, it was designed before the Dominion were on the radar. If bigger is better why not design a super ship that could take on a Borg Cube? It is not like they were known to send multiply ships.

That's probably what the Sovereign was intended to be.

My point exactly. Super large ships would seem to be sitting still when compared to smaller more maneuverable ships.

In comparison? Yup.
'Course, you could say the same thing about a speedboat with a .50 cal machine gun welded to the front and an aircraft carrier. Take a guess at which one would win in a fight.

Yes using its warp engines to facilitate that turn, how long could they keep that up? Does that help with attacks from below, or above?

Maneouverability is largely irrelevant when you have 360^o weapons and shield coverage.

You're seriously overstating the advantages of superior maneouverability and speed. A faster and more maneouverable ships is always going to get destroyed by a battleship.

[Deepcrush]

You would see the full power for that weapon, that does not mean it would be equal to the output of all the weapons.

Fucktard... I'm saying that the total output of all the battleships weapons would be greater then that of the fast attack ship.

Never said that. It will be shooting back, just with a small amount of its total weapons.

A small number of 16/18'' guns will still wreck a ship that only carries 5'' guns. This is how war works...

....and over heats much faster. Yes more power to the shields, but still not as good as a ship that has the maneuverability to dictate what they expose to the enemy.

I take it you've seen the lost eps where a battleship design comes without a cooling system. Expose whatever part of your little ship you want. A single hit from a battleship will still burn that little prick of yours into stardust.

Just because smaller ships were designed with the XII in mind does not mean it would be a easy, or possible swap in to the GCS. Support structures may have to be moved, more or large plasma conduits run.

That just means it would involve "WORK" to get them in there. Big surprise that someone would put work into building a ship.

The Lakota was a complete refit, much like the massive refit of the Original Enterprise.

Wrong again. The Lakota went under refit but everything was fitted without any external change. The E-nil was fully rebuilt. O'Brian, Starfleet's best couldn't tell the difference between the Lakota and any other Excelsior. Even when they first came under fire O'Brian couldn't explain it. All this means that the Lakota under went the full refit without having to change the base design.

But speaking of which the Defiant (fast destroyer) was far more 'speedy' then the Lakota (cruiser) and yet they still finished even at the end of the battle. A one hundred year old cruiser matched the top of the line combat ship of the UFP in battle. Now you want to pretend that a brand new Battleship couldn't beat a destroyer? Whatever drugs you take for that little world of yours... Up the dose.

I have not been arguing about what was produced during the war, but when those smaller ships were designed.

What does that matter, again? The Akira isn't a small ship. The Sov isn't a small ship. The GCS isn't a small ship. The Neb isn't a small ship. The Ambassador isn't a small ship. Starfleet turns out just as many large ships as they small ships. You build what you need. Not what you make up for bullshitting in a debate.

As I said, it was designed before the Dominion were on the radar. If bigger is better why not design a super ship that could

take on a Borg Cube? It is not like they were known to send multiply ships.

First the UFP may not have anything able to build a ship the size of a Borg Cube. Second you never build an uber prototype. Why you may ask? Because when you are testing something you need to keep it as cheap as possible. That's why test planes are so small. Only half the size and a forth the tonage of the fighter plane they intend. THey have to test every system out. One piece at a time.

Far from meaning less. Yes they would be factored in, but that does not mean they would have enough power to to feed uber weapons. For most things you do reach points of diminishing returns.

Nope, still meaningless because... What uber weapons? We're talking about going from type Xs to type XIIs. They aren't uber, there just better then standard. That and I doubt my leaving the tv on in my quarters would some how cause the phasers to be short on power. That is seeing that I've never seen the crew of a UFP ship turn everything off so that they would have enough power to shoot back.

My point exactly. Super large ships would seem to be sitting still when compared to smaller more maneuverable ships.

And that means........? Again NOTHING! Yea!!!! Battleships aren't meant to dip and dodge around. They're built to stand in place and rip apart enemy warships. That little ship of yours wouldn't be trying to close. He'd be running like hell to get away. OH, but wait! That larger warship will most likely have better warp drive so your little ship couldnt' even do that much!

Yes using its warp engines to facilitate that turn, how long could they keep that up? Does that help with attacks from below, or above?

Warp engines to facilitate? Evidence please... Even though that is again meaningless. The ship can spin faster then the other ship can fly around it.

How long can they keep that up? In TOS is was a standard practice to use warp in battle. In DS9 we saw SoA where ships fought for several hours without any real trouble. I'd guess they can keep going for a fairly long time unless you have evidence to say otherwise.

Does that help with attacks from below or above? Fucking duh! I doubt that they built the ships to turn in only one direction.