GCS Vs 12" Cannons

[m52nickerson]

So nickerson, put up or shut up.

Fine.........

"Best of Both Wolrds" we see the E-D in chasing the Borg Cube at high warp, close to max for the Enterprise. The E-D fires a number of photon torpedoes the streak very quickly away from the ship.

So max speed for a torpedo would seem is greater then the maximum warp speed of the E-D which is listed at 9.6 from "Encounter at Farpoint"

......but that is only because the ship was at warp to start.

True, but find me a explanation, in canon, that states the torpedoes did not achieve that speed on their own.

....but even if they did not then the torpedo speed may be based on the speed of the launching ship. Then what is maximum speed under impulse power, well according to "Star Trek" the motion picture the Enterprise could achieve warp 0.8 without it's warp engines. TOS warp scale that would equal 0.8c. Also in that movie we know the the Enterprise travels from earth to Jupiter in 1.8 hours. At minimum that is ~628,000,000 km. Do the math and you get a seep of around 0.3c.

Damn and you were only giving max impulse of 0.25c.

I know, I know........

So just to go back, that would mean that a torpedo fired from a ship at maximum impulse would be going at least 0.25c.

Let say a photon torpedo is 100 kg, 200 some is the reported in the TNGTM, so I think 100 is safe. 0.25c as speed, do the math and we get 4,493,775 terajoules/sec.

Now a torpedo is around 200 cm long plus that in to get time of impact (6.6713e-9)do more math and we get, 30 gigawatts.

Ha that is less then the 53 GW stated by Seafort!

Why yes it is, that is because his calculations are flawed. 52 megajoules/second = 0.052 gigawatts, not 53 gigawatts as stated. That and he forgot the time of impact calculation he stated as 9.68*10E-04 s. That would be 0.000968 seconds. Remember that we are talking megajoules per second. So 0.000968 seconds X 52 megajoules/second = 0.050336 megajoules total which converted to gigawatts = 0.00005033 gigawatts.

Well that is like 50 kilowatts?

That is right because time of impact really does not come into play. I don't know why it was posted. So that puts us back to calculations without the time of impact calculation, which the closest we come is:

Seaforts ship = 52 megajoules / 52 megawatts per shell, x 8 shells = 416 megawatts

A photon torpedo at 0.25c = 4,493,775 terajoules = 4,493,775 terawatts.

Now you may ask why we don't see KE weapons used n trek because of the power they could generate near the speed of light, well we may be smarter then everyone in the Trek Universe, or KE does little on its own to Shields.


You can also read this the The "Survivors" Fallacy.

[Mikey]

Your calculations are very well-reasoned, nickerson. But we still saw it.

*EDIT* The article to which you linked doesn't seem to have any authority, aside from crediting one "G. Kennedy" for pictures.

[Coalition]

Does Star Trek use mass-lightening technology? If so, that could be how photons can get high fractions of c for their speed, while not becoming kinetic weapons. They use the mass lightener to allow the photon to be fast enough to catch the target, but it means they still need a warhead, rather than the photon just slamming into the target.

Let's go with 1 ton for the photon torpedo's mass. Assume a speed of .5c (to make it easy on me), and from the kinetic energy equation, it would have 5.3 Gigatons of energy if it hit (1000 kg * 150,000,000 m/s * 150,000,000 m/s = Joules of damage. Joules / 4184000000 = tons of damage).

A statted photon has 1.5 kg of matter, and 1.5 kg of antimatter for roughly 64 megatons yield, assuming 100% efficiency. DS9 TM had (IIRC) 73% efficiency, so that drops it to 47 Megatons. They had to avoid damage to the ship when firing at the Borg cube behind them (Q Who? IIRC) meaning the explosion is not focused (aka half). So a standard photon has ~24 megatons of damage potential. This has been shown to be less in the series, but I want a nice large number for here.

So if a photon torpedo relied upon kinetic energy, it would have over 200 times the energy of the antimatter warhead. If it had a 1/1000 mass lightener (so it only had the apparent mass of 1 kg) it would be ~5.3 Megatons of damage. Chances are the mass lightener is better than that, but I don't know just how good.

Anyone know of any cases where an unpowered photon performed? I know a Dominion torpedo penetrated the Defiant's hull in "Starship Down", was fairly intact, and did not detonate. We can have fun speculating on that another time though.

[Captain Seafort]

Then what is maximum speed under impulse power, well according to "Star Trek" the motion picture the Enterprise could achieve warp 0.8 without it's warp engines. TOS warp scale that would equal 0.8c. Also in that movie we know the the Enterprise travels from earth to Jupiter in 1.8 hours. At minimum that is ~628,000,000 km. Do the math and you get a seep of around 0.3c.

Correct. After accelerating for the best part of two hours - as I pointed out above that gives a maximum linear acceleration of 30km/s^2 for the refitted E-nil. Go back and read that point again.

*snip crap maths*

*sigh* Go back and read the fucking post.

That is right because time of impact really does not come into play.

Of course it does - unless you know the duration of the impact you can't calculate the power of it.

You can also read this the The "Survivors" Fallacy.

You're using fucking Darkstar as evidence? The man who thinks humans are born with metal spines, and fighter pilots far be combat-effective after days in a cockpit?

[Mikey]

You're using f***ing Darkstar as evidence? The man who thinks humans are born with metal spines, and fighter pilots far be combat-effective after days in a cockpit?

Maybe it's got something to do with using "-star" as a suffix in your name.

[m52nickerson]

Correct. After accelerating for the best part of two hours - as I pointed out above that gives a maximum linear acceleration of 30km/s^2 for the refitted E-nil. Go back and read that point again.

Acceleration does not matter if a ship fires a torpedo while already at 0.25c or any other speed. So ship at 0.25c fires a torpedo that torpedo must be going at least 0.25c to be able to move away from that ship.

*sigh* Go back and read the f***ing post.

How about you address my question on why we never see KE weapons used.

Of course it does - unless you know the duration of the impact you can't calculate the power of it.

So is that why you left that out of your calculations?

You're using f***ing Darkstar as evidence? The man who thinks humans are born with metal spines, and fighter pilots far be combat-effective after days in a cockpit?

Yup, if you find errors in the article please by all means point them out.

[Aaron]

Yup, if you find errors in the article please by all means point them out.

I'm forced to agree with m52nickelback, Darkstar may indeed be the assclown of the ST fanbase (and indeed he is) but it's not enough to throw out his arguments based on that fact alone, one must show his work is in error.

[Sionnach Glic]

Time to kick this debate to a seperate thread, I think.

[Sionnach Glic]

And we're here.

M52, thank you for providing support for your claims. That is what we want to see in a debate.

That said, you may want to find a better source than RSA. He's a known liar and general loony. I'd bet on it taking five minutes for Seafort to find some sort of mass distortions in his page.

[Mikey]

To be honest, I didn't see any "work" in the linked article other than general personal assumptions.

[Mikey]

To be honest, I didn't see any "work" in the linked article other than general personal assumptions.

*EDIT* and let me echo Rochey: m52, that's much more helpful and reaosnable than simply saying "It's ridiculous because I say it's ridiculous."

[Sionnach Glic]

To be honest, I didn't see any "work" in the linked article other than general personal assumptions.

Aye. I took a look and, as expected, didn't see much in the way of evidence.

Still, it's Seafort's job to disprove it. I'm staying mostly out of this thread, and limiting myself to moderating the debate.

[Captain Seafort]

Acceleration does not matter if a ship fires a torpedo while already at 0.25c or any other speed. So ship at 0.25c fires a torpedo that torpedo must be going at least 0.25c to be able to move away from that ship.

Are you seriously this stupid? The speed of the launching ship is irrelevant - the very fact that it fires a torpedo will mean that relative to the same external observer you're basing the relative speed of the ship on, it will already be travelling at at least .25c. To outrun the launching ship, the torp only has to have a relative speed of greater than 0m/s.

How about you address my question on why we never see KE weapons used.

*Shrugs* Who knows? Maybe it's more energy efficient to use beam weapons, or they consider the adaptability of the weapons they use to be a fair trade-off. It doesn't change the fact that a Hipper class broadside is powerful enough bring down the shields of a GCS.

So is that why you left that out of your calculations?

Left what out?

The shell was 89.5cm long, and the impact time was therefore 9.68*10E-04 s.

Yup, if you find errors in the article please by all means point them out.

Where do you want me to start? The entire article is an appeal to incredulity, working from the assumption that Fed ships must be able to withstand more than 400GW, and ignoring the fact that exactly that happened in the episode in question - he makes no effort to refute the incident itself. None of the examples he gives of ships withstanding incidents of greater power involve kinetic impacts, which is a massive flaw in the argument. Not to mention that he uses his own massively overblown figures as "evidence" of huge Fed weapon yields or shield capacities.

I don't dispute the fact that Fed shields can absorb megatons of energy, but only in the form of gamma radiation, thermal radiation, and similar. Not KE.

[m52nickerson]

Are you seriously this stupid? The speed of the launching ship is irrelevant - the very fact that it fires a torpedo will mean that relative to the same external observer you're basing the relative speed of the ship on, it will already be travelling at at least .25c. To outrun the launching ship, the torp only has to have a relative speed of greater than 0m/s.

You are correct on the speed relative to the launching ship. The targeted ship, if at a stand still with still be hit with a projectile traveling at least as fast as the launching ship, in this case 0.25c.

*Shrugs* Who knows? Maybe it's more energy efficient to use beam weapons, or they consider the adaptability of the weapons they use to be a fair trade-off. It doesn't change the fact that a Hipper class broadside is powerful enough bring down the shields of a GCS.

So launching a torpedo is not efficient. The example I gave shows how much damage a torpedo does just based on mass and speed.

No, a broadside from a Hipper would not take down the shields, even with the number stated in the "Survivors" episode. I showed you how your math was wrong. If you are still going to claim this do you have anything else to back it up?

Left what out?

The shell was 89.5cm long, and the impact time was therefore 9.68*10E-04 s.

Yes you had that line in there, but it was not part of your calculations. I showed this in my post, perhaps you missed that.

Where do you want me to start? The entire article is an appeal to incredulity, working from the assumption that Fed ships must be able to withstand more than 400GW, and ignoring the fact that exactly that happened in the episode in question - he makes no effort to refute the incident itself. None of the examples he gives of ships withstanding incidents of greater power involve kinetic impacts, which is a massive flaw in the argument. Not to mention that he uses his own massively overblown figures as "evidence" of huge Fed weapon yields or shield capacities.

I don't dispute the fact that Fed shields can absorb megatons of energy, but only in the form of gamma radiation, thermal radiation, and similar. Not KE.

Overblown figures, it seems that since your own calculations were far off and you have not showed how his calculations are off you have refuted nothing.

We also have the fact that you have not shown that the "Particle Energy" is a KE attack. In Physics impact force is measured in Newtons, not watts.

So, lets review.........

It has been shown that your calculations to show that a WW2 ship could take down a GCS shields are incorrect. You have failed to address why KE weapons are not used if shields are weak against them. You have failed to explain why a photon torpedo, which I have shown, that has more KE associated with it that the 400 MW stated to needs does not drops shields right away. Now you have to explain why you think the weapon used in "Survivors" was a KE attack even when the impact force from a physical strike is measured in Newtons.

[Captain Seafort]

0.25c.

Prove it you blithering idiot - provide evidence of combat occuring at such high relative speed.

So launching a torpedo is not efficient. The example I gave shows how much damage a torpedo does just based on mass and speed.

Wrong - the example you gave made massive and unproven assumptions about the speed of a torpedo.

I showed you how your math was wrong.

You showed nothing but your own incompetence.

Yes you had that line in there, but it was not part of your calculations. I showed this in my post, perhaps you missed that.

Wrong, idiot - go back and read the post again.

Overblown figures, it seems that since your own calculations were far off

Go back and read that post again.

you have not showed how his calculations are off you have refuted nothing.

I don't have to - my argument is derived directly from the canon statement, which Darkstar completely failed to rebut.

We also have the fact that you have not shown that the "Particle Energy" is a KE attack. In Physics impact force is measured in Newtons, not watts.

Kinetic energy is measured in joules. The energy of an impact, in joules, divided by the duration of that impact, in seconds, gives you the power of that impact, in watts. Is that simple enough for you?

It has been shown that your calculations to show that a WW2 ship could take down a GCS shields are incorrect.

Wrong, fuckwit. Go back and read the post again.

You have failed to address why KE weapons are not used if shields are weak against them.

Wrong, fuckwit, I've done so repeatedly.

which I have shown, that has more KE associated with it that the 400 MW

400 GW you idiot - get the canon facts straight at least. You've shown nothing of the sort - the speed your using is massively exaggerated.

Now you have to explain why you think the weapon used in "Survivors" was a KE attack even when the impact force from a physical strike is measured in Newtons.

See above.