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Mikey wrote:You mean, you guess only one remained, but can't really back that up.

Hm. One designe is seen only once. Where the other is seen one every othe ocasione.
We know that the WP offers several advatages.
We don't know if the Sp- offers any advatages. Infact we even don't know if that was realy a sensor pod.

How do you use this as an argument if it's actually the goal of the debate?

Is there anything that suggest that the pods are interchangible. Is there any evidence for that?

Now if thex can be changed why is the pylon diffrent?
If you have to change thy pylon with the pod thene the storage is higly inafficient.

Already explained by at least three different people. The bulk of shots we see are of ships being sent into combat, not on recon or intel missions. Given the choice of an AWACS Neb or WP Neb for a pure combat mission, why would they use the former?

True, there are plenty of other mission that it could be doing. But that doesn't mean that it couldn't be used in a fleet battle. Especialy that its still stonger than most of other ships.

Re-read that. The Defiant also featured in FC, along with those Akiras. How could one be OK, but another contemporary ship not be?

We know the history of the Defiant. At the time of the FC it at best went into full production. The Akira was seen in hign numbers during the war. One is that the fed can builed a lot of ship realy fast or that they were in production for a while.

Fair point on the Lakota/Excelsiors; but isn't that exactly Deep's point about the upgrade to the GCS?

He pointed out the Venture. No other GCS was seen wits similar upgrades.

No, you would expect it to be used as a last-dich resource, and in general to find the eapons-pod variant preferable for combat situations. How many different ways does this need to be said?

I get it. There are nummerus wasy to use such a ship. But it can also be used in a fleet. Why wasn't it seen? Thats my problem, they used every other designe, some weaker than the Neb,...

Except for the fact that there were different variants/modules for different roles.

True. We just need to find out what advatages a variant offers.

Being able to do anything moderately well and being optimized for one thing very well aren't the same thing, you know.

But what if you have the best equipment to do anything and can't get anything better. Simple as that.

We know? How, exactly?

Based on the capabilities of a similar ship.

mlsnoopy wrote:Hm. One designe is seen only once. Where the other is seen one every othe ocasione.
We know that the WP offers several advatages.
We don't know if the Sp- offers any advatages. Infact we even don't know if that was realy a sensor pod

The other is seen one every other occasion that would call for a combat, not recon, variant. It's hardly surprising or telling that combat situations would call for the combat-oriented variant. Am I getting deja-vue?

Anyway, you're right - we don't know for a fact that the other variant was an enhanced sensor pod. But by your reasoning, Starfleet went and fitted a ship with an extra piece of equipment that was meant specifically to do nothing. Quit selling, 'cause I ain't buying.

mlsnoopy wrote:True, there are plenty of other mission that it could be doing. But that doesn't mean that it couldn't be used in a fleet battle. Especialy that its still stonger than most of other ships.

But the AWACS Neb certainly wouldn't be stronger than the WP-Neb. Given the option of two different Nebulas, why would you put the recon-oriented one into a slugging match over the slugging-match oriented one?

mlsnoopy wrote:We know the history of the Defiant. At the time of the FC it at best went into full production. The Akira was seen in hign numbers during the war. One is that the fed can builed a lot of ship realy fast or that they were in production for a while.

By your own "logic," there is no full production - there are only two Defiants in all of Starfleet.

mlsnoopy wrote:He pointed out the Venture. No other GCS was seen wits similar upgrades.

YOU said that every GCS was fitted with the extra phaser arrays.

mlsnoopy wrote:I get it. There are nummerus wasy to use such a ship. But it can also be used in a fleet. Why wasn't it seen? Thats my problem, they used every other designe, some weaker than the Neb

Holy hopping snot, we're back to this...
OK, plain and simple - there are two reasons for this:
1) There are better variants of the Neb to use for that
2) There are better uses for the AWACS variant - uses which wouldn't be shown in an ep involving a fleet battle.

True. We just need to find out what advatages a variant offers.

Not really. We just have to know that a variant was built for purpose - it simply follows that such a variant is better at that purpose than one which was built for something else.

But what if you have the best equipment to do anything and can't get anything better. Simple as that.

Then there wouldn't be a WP-variant either; then there wouldn't be any new starship designs within 20 years of each other. What if all Fed starships had solid gold heads? Enough with the herrings - it's not New Year's Day anymore.

Based on the capabilities of a similar ship.

YOU said just prior to this that we don't know the use or capability of what we take to be the AWACS pod; but now you say that you know that it doesn't increase any capability? Come on, man - pick a position and stick with it.

mlsnoopy,

I'm going to go ahead and assume that you didn't rear the post i made becasue i didn't give a line by line rebuttle so here i go

Hm. One designe is seen only once. Where the other is seen one every othe ocasione.
We know that the WP offers several advatages.
We don't know if the Sp- offers any advatages. Infact we even don't know if that was realy a sensor pod.

We see it once because its entirely probable that in all the star trek shows we dont end up in situations where observing the ship would be interesting. but lets look at the episode it was in. the ship was obviously stationed near the cardassian border since it was attacking ships in cardassian space. this would fit the idea that these ships are used as a mobile sensor platform along system borders. we don't see these ships in large fleet engements in the Dominion wars meaning its probably not suited for large scale combat, but it obviously has defencive capabilities. If we were to compare it to an AWAK plane of today, they are not thrown into combat but rather are used in command and control behind the scenes. since the episodes generally focus on where the action is its very understandable that we would never see this variant again. so in the dom wars i would think that MOST ships would be recalled and fitted with the weapons pod but some would be kept the SWAK to monitor the battle field and relay the info to the fleet commanders or have the fleet commanders on board

Is there anything that suggest that the pods are interchangible. Is there any evidence for that?

Now if thex can be changed why is the pylon diffrent?
If you have to change thy pylon with the pod thene the storage is higly inafficient.

is there any particular reason why the pylon can't be modular? if you look at the pictures on this site form the episode where it appeared you never really see the whole pylon, its possible the nebuals have a standard pylon "base" and that the pylon itself is part of the set up. perhaps different pylons can house different utilites/munition storage facilities, ect. maybe the SWAK has the dual pylon set up beacause each pylon carries a different directional sensor array that if too close to the other array can cause overlapping sensor contacts or other malfunctions. it would be foolish to have the pods not interchangable, and given the modular nature of starfleets designes it is a logical assumpoint that they are infact interchangable

True, there are plenty of other mission that it could be doing. But that doesn't mean that it couldn't be used in a fleet battle. Especialy that its still stonger than most of other ships.

why would it be sent into battle as it, why would they not install the weapons pod before hand? just because it has guns on it doesn't mean you toss it into battle. MOST nebula class ships probably have the weapons pod, only a few would have the SWAK pod and they would again, be used in conjuntion with the fleet outside the battle to allor fleety commanders access to real time information on the battle and relay that info to the commanders in the field. it would be stupid to throw these ships into combat, not to mention a waste of resourses

I get it. There are nummerus wasy to use such a ship. But it can also be used in a fleet. Why wasn't it seen? Thats my problem, they used every other designe, some weaker than the Neb,...

your talking in circles and not making any sense, but see the above paragraph

Againe what. There is no reason not to send them into combat. The fleets were hundrets of ship strong you would expect that there would be some SP-Nebulas seen somewhere during the war. The question is where are they?

again, they may have been there....albeit with weapons pods in place instead. let me make an example say you had 100 nebulas, 50 of which had the sensor pod and are religated to border patrol and other boring observation duties. war breaks out. you recall 25 of thos 50 and fit them with wapons pods and not have 75 combat ready nebs. well the borders still need watching in so lets say 20 stay to thier normal duties. leaving you with 5 ships with mederate combat abilites. these ships would bake litte difference in a battle and wothout them the fleet commander would either need to be in the battle or dangorously close to it. so instead of sending these ships into battle they use them as Combat obseervation posts. When was the last time you saw an AWAK of today actively participating in a battle....

Not when you are making an all or nothing attack. You use everything that you can.

if that were the case how come we didn't see civilian ships with some offencive abilities in the battle, how about freighters filled with tri-cobalt explosives slamming into ships and instillations at high warp under remote control? your reasonings are highly flawed.

Why its still more powerfull than any Miranda? Even the Sp Nebula had no problems desroying cardasians ships.

as i recall, it was mostly freighters they were destroying wasn't it?

Sorry I'm late.........welcome to !!! Anybody who's first AV is one of a starship is ok by me!!! (Big Surprise)

Since this thread is literally older than I am on the site, I was thinking that maybe we could re-cap. Hell, some opinions may even have changed.

So, to the thread name.


I'd still pick a Promethus class, and name her the USS Morpheus. I don't care what all you guys say............I LOVE the MVAM concept and want to command that ship and a hot zone.

Next?

I want the USS Excelsior with the Lakota system upgrades. Most likely I'd be on some border partrol. I'd like to add about 10cm of armor to the hull but i'm not sure what that would do in terms of stress. SIFs would be upgrade for sure. Outside of that, I love this ship.

EXCELSIOR!

Your obession with the only class of starship ever see to stall never cease to amaze me. If they can't even get the clutch right, what chance has the rest of the design got?

Nova Class, USS Darwin

......all types of science mission of course.

Same as before, uprated Sovereign class. Big and bad enough to keep me safe in 99% of any situations, and cushy enough to do so in comfort.

Intepid or Nova, laid back missions, nothing stressful.

Captain Seafort wrote:Your obession with the only class of starship ever see to stall never cease to amaze me. If they can't even get the clutch right, what chance has the rest of the design got?

Hey, my grandpa fixed that thing before I was even born and like a my Ford Ranger, its still running. Besides, no one gets the clutch right the first time around and they haven't had a problem since. I'll take that over the modern ships which have a warp core breach a week.

Captain Seafort wrote:Your obession with the only class of starship ever see to stall never cease to amaze me. If they can't even get the clutch right, what chance has the rest of the design got?

To be fair, Scotty did let out all the transmission fluid first.

.....but they still had to change them out because even with fluid it did not work.

Lt. Staplic wrote:I would pick the Defiant (w/ cloak) and go on top secret infultration missions.

my origional choice, I'd probably still go with a Defiant, but probably for more routine escourt/patrol missions.

Defiant is a nice ship. Little uber ship that could...