Starfleet size

Post by **Teaos** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:02 pm

Ah but Spacedock is filled with empty space for ships. Repair facilities, industrial replicators (Probably) and a bunch of other stuff including crew quarters and other personal areas. Sure it would be strong but I bet a half dozen good ships could take it down.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:17 pm

Teaos wrote:Ah but Spacedock is filled with empty space for ships. Repair facilities, industrial replicators (Probably) and a bunch of other stuff including crew quarters and other personal areas. Sure it would be strong but I bet a half dozen good ships could take it down.

DS9 is about a kilometre wide, and a bare frame - it's 90% or more empty space. Spacedock is almost four km across, almost six km high, and is more or less a solid cylinder - only the mushroom is docking space. If by "good ships" you mean Borg, or Dominion Battleships you're probably right, but DS9 destroyed or damaged 50 Dominion ships in "A Call to Arms", and Spacedock is dozens of times larger.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:43 pm

I think much of what is forgotten is how Fed ships are built. Every ship is made like a piece of art. Hallways, crew cabins and everything else is built to comfort the crews. Another thought is that I've heard could the feds do it (build a massive fleet) or would their people support it. Its a tough thought but the answer is yes to all the above statements made by everyone here. The Feds could easily build a fleet to overpower the dominion (though I don't like it as I love the dominion, it reminds me so much of USA) and could also win an arms race with any race in the AQ, BQ or GQ. The problem isn't the ability to build but the desire to build. Starfleet is torn between so many duties and the people of the UFP have become so self secure that they think they have nothing to fear. Just look at the build of Starfleet. At least 90% of the fleet personal were human, that's just so stupid. Human's have become the peacekeepers of the UFP. What would have happened if earth would ever leave the UFP (not that it would happen but think if the US left NATO and the UN - This is food for thought). Earth seems to build itself up very well without the need of many resources from the outside systems. All but 3 of the shipyards are in the Sol Sector. The thing that cost the Dominion the war was the UFP. The dominion should have made its treaties with the Feds and Cardassians at the same time. When the Klingons attacked the Feds, the dominion should have attacked the Klingons in support of the UFP. It makes sense that if you want to control the chaos and you can't control the whole of the AQ by yourself then you should pick someone you could trust with such a thing. Then enter the UFP! The dominion should have signed an alliance with the UFP and in turn supported its control over the AQ. Not by invasion or conquest but by helping the feds against the Klingons and beating them down. The Romulans were very quick to sue for peace after they failed to wipe out the founders so they weren't looking for a fight. The Feds and Dominion allied together, each holding the bulk of the quadrants that they are living in would leave the Klingons broken, Romulans worried about ever coming out of their borders, Cardassians with a chance to join the feds, dominion unchallenged in the GQ and the two greatest powers (UFP and Dominion) without anyone capable of bucking them.

In the end starfleet could have 50,000 ships if they wanted to but they don't because it would hurt their moral standings. They wouldn't want to look in the mirror and think "Oh! We did the right thing for once! How could we? The right thing isn't what we are ment to do!"

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:52 pm

Have you got any evidence whatsoever that the Feds could build a fleet that size? The impression we get of the Federation is not one of a civilisation that only builds to a fraction of its capacity, but one that builds to its capacity of the wrong type of ship. The YE Feds, even after 20 years of war were being out fought by the Klingons, implying (given the Klingon propensity for smaller ships) that they were outnumbered. That isn't after a few years, or a "come as you" war - it's after they've been fighting for decades, with a heavily militarised Starfleet, and building to the limit of their capacity. Since the Klingons are likely building to capacity most of the time, given their obsession with war, this puts strict limits on Federation industrial capacity.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:02 pm

Look at these size comparisons:
The first one is DS9 and a 'small' Fed starbase:

This second one is DS9 and fullsize Spacedock from 24th Century (Starbase 74)

Just look at the difference - even with the small one.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:06 pm

YE is to open for my likes as well as it leaves many unansewerd questions. As to evidence, I'd ask you as why couldn't they build a fleet of that size. As we have seen most of starfleet is made of brain-heads but the klingons, cardassians and dominion have shown that you don't need the smartest people to use a fleet. You just need them to help design, build and maintain. Anyone can be taught to replace a broken part, they don't have to know how it works or why, just that it does. Driving a M1A1 is about the same as a John Deer Wheat Picker. Can drive one and with only a few hours training I could drive the other. Yet I don't know how the M1A1 works or why each parts works or how to make it. But its not hard to replace each part (Minus the CBN suit you would need for the hull) and get each of them running again. Starfleet has it that each and every person has to be a border-line Einstien to serve but its needed. The whole of starfleet doesn't have to be that way, just the explorer and science ends of starfleet. With the UFP's population such a fleet would be easy to field but you would have to understand that not all of the fleet would beable to act as mad scientists or diplomats. I would picture something like how the fleet personel are set up in B5. Their not all wiss-kids but they get the job done.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:14 pm

What's your point? I never mentioned the crewing requirements - I simply pointed out that the demonstrated industrial capacity of the Federation is likely similar to the Klingons, given the situation in YE. The key problem they have isn't that they aren't building to capacity but that they're building badly designed ships - the Galaxy being the classic example. The Dominion, who were noted as being unusually adpt at building ships quickly were only able to maintain a 30,000 strong fleet in the AQ with the combined resources of the Cardassians, the Breen, and an unknown number of occupied Federation Alliance worlds.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:38 pm

I never said 'crew' anything, you should read more closely (like I should have in the "What if"). The UFP was building with shipyards not built for war. They were building ships that weren't meant for war. Worse of all their people weren't ready for war. Starfleet could have built a larger fleet if they had put their mind to it from the beginning, instead of waiting for a new enemy to pop up. I still want you to tell me why they couldn't produce and maintain a fleet of such size? YE made a nice story line but that doesn't mean starfleet can't field ships. Its hard to know why starfleet was lossing the war. Could have been any number of mind numbing reasons knowing the Feds.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:04 pm

You were spending enough time talking about the requirements of operating vehicles and the different training requirements of the exploration/science departments WRT the military end to give the impression you were talking about crew training requirements.

As for the fleet size, we know that the Dominion, with the combined resources of the Cardassians and the Breen, could field a 30k strong fleet. Against this the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans could probably field a similar but slightly superior fleet, based on the fact that in "What You Leave Behind" and assault on Cardassian space was considered to be a costly but achievable operation. Since the three powers have always appeared to be roughly equal in terms of military strength, this implies a fleet strength of around 10k each, with the Romulans probably having the fewest, given their concentration on the big D'Deridex-class ships, and the Klingons having the most, with their opposite concentration on raiders.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:13 pm

Well then that makes sense as to the overall size of starfleet but not the size starfleet could be if it was better managed.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:17 pm

Someone said that the Fed only had 3 shipyards outside of the Solar System - I provided quite a sizable list of all the shipyards we know of, and only two or three are inside the Solar System.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:18 pm

Could you repost that list on here for reference please. It might be helpful.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:40 pm

I know of Eridani, Antares and Beta Antares Fleet yards outside of Sol.
San Fancisco, McKinley and Utopia Planitia Fleet yards inside of Sol.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:41 pm

Deepcrush wrote:Could you repost that list on here for reference please. It might be helpful.

Well, there is a shipyard in my pants... but nobody believes me...

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:42 pm

Jim wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:Could you repost that list on here for reference please. It might be helpful.
Well, there is a shipyard in my pants... but nobody believes me...

SHIPYARD?

Replace 'p' with a 't' and we would.