War of the Week: I

[Deepcrush]

Sorry, didn't mean to bop it like that. Here is what I meant with a little more detail. The EDW would butcher whatever fleet it is first used on then I could see the klingon forces using raids as their main campain. Their whole fleet attacking all over breen space. If the breen want to launch an attack against the home world then they'll have to leave their worlds unguarded or only with token forces. That is what I had in mind. It would buy time for the klingons and force the breen to maintain a home fleet which would lower thier numbers. The cardis would just be praying that the klingons would leave them alone for a little while to get regrouped like they did when the fed-kling war opened up. If your 'raid' is a fleet one thousand strong then you are going to do some hurt wheither its klingon or breen. At this point the klingons could almost just leave the cardis boxed up in the sectors (or whats left) and focus on the breen. Knock out the biggest enemy then return to finish off the weaker cardi forces.

[Captain Peabody]

Okay, everyone here seems to have the idea that the Cardassians are some kind of uber-weak pathetic group of weaklings...but that's obviously not the case. The Cardassians are a major, interstellar Empire with a large territory and an extremely powerful military...they're not a bunch of teletubbies with ray-guns (I'm not sure where this analogy came from, but I like it, so it's staying). They fought the Federation to a draw, for pete's sake! It's not like they'd be huddling in their borders shaking in fear at the scary Klingons.
And, before you say it, yes, the Klingons took them down fairly easily in Way of the Warrior; but remember, this was years past the Cardassia's heyday, and right after a major coup and most likely a major military reduction put into place by the new civilian government. There is no way the tough, powerful Cardassians who slaughtered the Federation colonists at Setlik III would be taken down half so easily as you're suggesting.

Rant over. Thank you....

[Thorin]

Okay, everyone here seems to have the idea that the Cardassians are some kind of uber-weak pathetic group of weaklings...but that's obviously not the case.

Yes, it is...

The Cardassians are a major, interstellar Empire with a large territory and an extremely powerful military...they're not a bunch of teletubbies with ray-guns (I'm not sure where this analogy came from, but I like it, so it's staying).

But they are. They don't have an extremely powerful military at all.

They fought the Federation to a draw, for pete's sake!

Nothing impressive. I'd expect the Republic of Ireland's military to defeat the Federation.

[Sionnach Glic]

Okay, everyone here seems to have the idea that the Cardassians are some kind of uber-weak pathetic group of weaklings...but that's obviously not the case.

It is in comparison to groups like the UFP or the Klingons.

The Cardassians are a major, interstellar Empire with a large territory and an extremely powerful military...

Not in comparison to other Trek races. How useful was this 'large territory' and 'extremely powerful military' when they were getting they're asses kicked by the Klingons?

They fought the Federation to a draw, for pete's sake!

The Federation is run by morons. Morons who would do anything to avoid a war. It's quite likely the Cardies made a concentrated counter-attack, similar to the Tet Offensive, which caused the UFP to sue for peace.

And, before you say it, yes, the Klingons took them down fairly easily in Way of the Warrior; but remember, this was years past the Cardassia's heyday, and right after a major coup and most likely a major military reduction put into place by the new civilian government.

The fact remains that they were beaten. Whatever excuses there are for it are irrelevant.

There is no way the tough, powerful Cardassians who slaughtered the Federation colonists at Setlik III would be taken down half so easily as you're suggesting.

1: Any evidence that the earlier Cardasians were more powerful?
2: This is still irrelevant, as we're not talking about the previous Cardies.

[Deepcrush]

Sorry but the cardis aren't weak but they are weak when compaired to the Klingon Empire. It just is what it is.

[Mikey]

All that Rochey and Throin said about the Cardies is true. In addition,

the tough, powerful Cardassians who slaughtered the Federation colonists at Setlik III

(my emphasis) - not Klingon warriors, not even Federation troops, such as they are. Colonists = civilians. That sure doesn't show me much.

[Deepcrush]

I don't remember anyone ever saying that the war was going badly for the feds. It was more like they just lost the taste to fight.

[Captain Seafort]

The fact that they gave up territory and Federation citizens to Cardassian jurisdiction in order to end the war, and then tried to enforce the treaty on those citizens rather than deal with Cardassian atrocities against them shows that they were unable to bring the war to a satisfactorary conclusion.

[Deepcrush]

Satisfactorary is a rough word with the feds.

[Captain Peabody]

But they are. They don't have an extremely powerful military at all.

Excuse me, but any society that is run by the military, with every single able-bodied Cardassian brainwashed from childhood to serve it, and practically all of its resources poured into it, has got to have at least something to show for its effort. Now, I'd agree that one-on-one they're still weaker than the Klingons, mainly because they don't have all that much resources in the first place, but come on...the Cardassians you people are discussing would never have been able to deal with any kind of Bajoran resistance, let alone occupy Bajor for 50+ years.

Nothing impressive. I'd expect the Republic of Ireland's military to defeat the Federation.

Right. So Ireland could beat thousands of troops armed with weapons capable of blowing a building apart with a single hit, or create a wide-field beam to stun everyon in the area, and with air support able to vaporize entire planets? Now, I'm sure those Irish are awful tough and all, but somehow, I have my doubts about that...

1: Any evidence that the earlier Cardasians were more powerful?
2: This is still irrelevant, as we're not talking about the previous Cardies.

Well, just what era are we talking about? It was never made clear... and in any event, wouldn't it make more sense to pick the eras of both sides at which they were most powerful, rather than at their weakest?

It is in comparison to groups like the UFP or the Klingons.

Oh, I agree that they're not really in the same league as the Big Three of Romulan, Klingon, and Federation...but still, they are a quite deadly regional power with enough forces and guts to stand toe-to-toe with the much-vaunted Federation and not only live to tell of it, but actually get quite a favorable peace treaty... not bad, if you ask me. If it were just the Klingons versus the Cardassians, I would agree with you...but for me, the Breen (another quite powerful group that is also not quite on the level of the big three) tip the balance against the Klingons; for me, even though either of the two alone would be slaughtered by the Klingons, together I think they can handle anything the Ol' Bumpy-Heads can throw at him. Just an opinion, though...

The fact that they gave up territory and Federation citizens to Cardassian jurisdiction in order to end the war, and then tried to enforce the treaty on those citizens rather than deal with Cardassian atrocities against them shows that they were unable to bring the war to a satisfactorary conclusion.

Exactly; couldn't have put it better myself...

[Captain Seafort]

Excuse me, but any society that is run by the military, with every single able-bodied Cardassian brainwashed from childhood to serve it, and practically all of its resources poured into it, has got to have at least something to show for its effort. Now, I'd agree that one-on-one they're still weaker than the Klingons, mainly because they don't have all that much resources in the first place, but come on...the Cardassians you people are discussing would never have been able to deal with any kind of Bajoran resistance, let alone occupy Bajor for 50+ years.

They gave up the Bajoran occupation due to the bloody-mindedness of the resistance. As for the issue of brainwashing, the same was true of Nazi Germany, and it was defeated by the superior industrial capacity of the allies - the same would happen to the Cardassians in any war against the Big Three.

Right. So Ireland could beat thousands of troops armed with weapons capable of blowing a building apart with a single hit, or create a wide-field beam to stun everyon in the area, and with air support able to vaporize entire planets? Now, I'm sure those Irish are awful tough and all, but somehow, I have my doubts about that...

The Irish took on a superpower for 700 years, until the superpower got fed up of the agro and went home (after being kept waiting for an extra 7 minutes ). Nonetheless they would certainly be defeated by the power you describe. Unfortunately, that bears little resemblance to the Federation - their weapons demonstrate high-end firepower equivalent to a few sticks of dynamite, they've never demonstrated wide-beam stun in combat conditions, and the number of times they've used shuttles (which have nowhere near panet-killing firepower) as air support can be counted on one hand.

[Mikey]

with every single able-bodied Cardassian brainwashed from childhood to serve it

I don't know if this is true. This is Cardassia, not Israel.

the Cardassians you people are discussing would never have been able to deal with any kind of Bajoran resistance, let alone occupy Bajor for 50+ years.

But in the final analysis, the Bajorans - a single-planet nation - did force the Cardassian Empire(!) to surrender their occupation.

[Teaos]

The Cardassians are pretty much all trained from birth to serve the empire.

And Bajor didnt really beat the Cardassians so much as just make it to bothersom to stay their. They showed they would never be beaten down thus the Cardassians just gave up.

[Mikey]

The Cardassians are pretty much all trained from birth to serve the empire.

In a strictly military capacity? According to which source?

And Bajor didnt really beat the Cardassians so much as just make it to bothersom to stay their. They showed they would never be beaten down thus the Cardassians just gave up.

However you describe it, the Cardassian Empire couldn't beat Bajor.

[Captain Peabody]

They gave up the Bajoran occupation due to the bloody-mindedness of the resistance. As for the issue of brainwashing, the same was true of Nazi Germany, and it was defeated by the superior industrial capacity of the allies - the same would happen to the Cardassians in any war against the Big Three.

Oh, I agree. Cardassia simply doesn't have the industrial base, or the resources, to take on the Federation, Klingons, or Romulans... The Cardassians are still a major power, though, capable of making quite a bit of trouble for any power that messes with them.

Unfortunately, that bears little resemblance to the Federation - their weapons demonstrate high-end firepower equivalent to a few sticks of dynamite, they've never demonstrated wide-beam stun in combat conditions, and the number of times they've used shuttles (which have nowhere near panet-killing firepower) as air support can be counted on one hand.

Well, it's been clearly demonstrated that they could do that...melting holes in solid rock, etc. Though why they never seem to use any of that when in actual combat situations is beyond me...perhaps some sort of Prime Directive for weapons? You know...No Federation personnel may use anything other than a minimal-power, narrow-beam setting, in order to not interfere with the development of other culture's...um, conquests. Because if they want to conquer us, hey, why interfere?

In a strictly military capacity? According to which source?

From Memory Alpha: "The Cardassian educational system is considered to be unparalleled in the Alpha Quadrant, and educational attainment is regarded as a key asset in Cardassian society. Cardassian children are often put into intensive mind training programs from as early as three or four. It is because of these mind training programs that some Cardassians are able to resist a Vulcan mind meld. Cardassians are also trained during this time to have photographic memories."

However you describe it, the Cardassian Empire couldn't beat Bajor.

Well, if it came down to sheer force, the Cardassians could have simply annihilated every single person on Bajor at any time...but they honestly believed that they could in the end convince the Bajorans to stop resisting if they punished the individual resistance cells individually. Eventually, of course, they grew tired of it and left.
And, when it comes down to it, there are many examples of huge Empires being succesfully resisted by the populace; witness Hitler's invasion of Russia. One of the main reasons why he didn't succeed was because virtually the entire Russian populace was against him, and were willing to do whatever it took to stop him. The Russians burned their cities and fields to the ground before Hitler could take them, and practically starved themselves to make sure his men were starving too. This doesn't in any way discount the true power of Nazi Germany; if it had come down to a fight, he would have slaughtered them.