VOY: The Gift

[Captain Seafort]

Captain Smith gets into a drunken brawl. The MPs show up to arrest him. He orders the MPs to mind their own business. Do they? No. They arrest him.

And why were the MPs there in the first place? Enforcing regulations, or following the orders of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff - who outranks a Captain.

In my personal case, as a PFC (E-3) I was given CQ (Charge of Quarters) duty, for the single enlisted barracks. Part of that was coordinating the parking lot as well as we had tandum stalls. Now, Private Fisher wanted to get out, but SSgt Ayers was blocking him in. As the CQ on duty, I TECHNICALLY gave him an order to come move his truck. What would have happened to him if he refused? He'd have been in the COs office, in deep s**t, explaining why he refused to follow the CQs instuctions.

Again, not a case of you ordering anyone around, but enforcing the CO's orders, either directly or via standing orders. Nitpicking maybe, but an important nickpick I feel.

Based on this, I'll concede that the specifics of an ops officer's job may very well fall into the same category of delegated authority. However, this is a separate matter from the issue of Starfleet's hierarchical nature, as the authority derives from the CO, not from the position inherently. I also don't see how it affects the chain of command within a department, as with the argument over O'Brien's status.

[Mikey]

You're claiming that there were no officers, and we know that O'Brien was department head. I fail to see the difference.

The one follows from the other - if there had been officers O'Brien wouldn't have been in charge.

No, this was in response to your claim that you'd agree, except for the fact that O'Brien's status as chief of engineering wasn't part of your position.

It's a matter of scale. If there are hundreds or thousands of people in a department you'd need a Commander or Captain. If there are half a dozen you only need a junior officer or a senior NCO.

Agreed - and going back to the original point of contention... the ops dept. of VOY was necessarily relatively small. Therefore, only an ensign (for example) could serve.

A station that's out in the arse-end of nowhere, and owned by the Bajorans, not the Federation. Indeed, most of O'Brien's staff were Bajoran, not Starfleet. The job simply wasn't big enough to warrant a commissioned officer.

The disposition of the station is a non-issue, as is the composition of the engineering staff. What's at issue here, going by your position, is the size of the staff. What makes you think that a station as populous as DS9 has such a small engineering staff?

BTW, I said "Fed-administered," not "Fed-owned."

[SomosFuga]

Based on this, I'll concede that the specifics of an ops officer's job may very well fall into the same category of delegated authority. However, this is a separate matter from the issue of Starfleet's hierarchical nature, as the authority derives from the CO, not from the position inherently. I also don't see how it affects the chain of command within a department, as with the argument over O'Brien's status.

Then, there could have been officers under O'Brien's orders because it's a delegated authority from the CO.
I find that more credible than not having a single officer in the Defiant's or DS9's engineering departments even in war times.

[Mikey]

Indeed. If you consider "carrying out a senior officer's standing orders" to be within the purview of a lower-ranked individual issuing orders to a higher-ranked one, that how is that different from Sisko implying a standing order of "O'Brien is in charge of engineering" simply by O'Brien's appointment to the department head position?

[Mark]

To look at a similar situation, lets examine then Commander Sisko. Each and every Federation Starship that came to DS9 had a Captain that outranked Sisko. Yet could any dictate DS9 or Bajoran policy to him? No. Because that was HIS job, and HIS command. He tells you to park your ship at upper pylon three, and thats what you do. If he tells you to wait in line because another ship has priority......superior officer or not, you wait.

[Captain Seafort]

No, this was in response to your claim that you'd agree, except for the fact that O'Brien's status as chief of engineering wasn't part of your position.

Alright, now I'm starting to get confused.

I'm making the simple statement that O'Brien was in charge of engineering, therefore O'Brien was the highest-ranked engineer on the station (or the Defiant). This is not rocket science.

Agreed - and going back to the original point of contention... the ops dept. of VOY was necessarily relatively small. Therefore, only an ensign (for example) could serve.

At yet the other departments were lead by Lieutenants or Lieutenant Commanders.

The disposition of the station is a non-issue, as is the composition of the engineering staff. What's at issue here, going by your position, is the size of the staff. What makes you think that a station as populous as DS9 has such a small engineering staff?

I'm not saying it has a small engineering staff - I'm saying that it has a small Starfleet engineering staff (and therefore led by an NCO) because most of the crew are Bajoran.

[Captain Seafort]

Indeed. If you consider "carrying out a senior officer's standing orders" to be within the purview of a lower-ranked individual issuing orders to a higher-ranked one, that how is that different from Sisko implying a standing order of "O'Brien is in charge of engineering" simply by O'Brien's appointment to the department head position?

Different situation. The ops officer is a case of one individual's area of responsibility temporarily overlapping another. O'Brien or Kim having senior officers under them in the chain of command is, quite frankly, idiotic beyond anything else Trek has come up with. It is directly contrary to the very concept of military rank.

[Mark]

Remember when O'Brian was testifying at Worf's hearing? They kept asking him what he would have done. Why? When would a Chief Petty Officer assume command of a starship in combat?

[Captain Seafort]

Remember when O'Brian was testifying at Worf's hearing? They kept asking him what he would have done. Why? When would a Chief Petty Officer assume command of a starship in combat?

When it's a bloody small ship. Given that we know for a fact that there wasn't a single commissioned officer in the entire engineering staff, I wouldn't be surprised if only the command crew were commissioned.

[Mikey]

Alright, now I'm starting to get confused.

You said:

If I was trying to claim that there were no Ensigns or higher-ranked personnel in the staff and that O'Brien was Chief Engineer you'd have a point, but I'm not.

I said, to paraphrase, that you claimed that there were no Ensigns or higher-ranked personnel in the staff; and the fact that O'Brien was Chief Engineer was common knowledge and not part of your stated position is academic.

At yet the other departments were lead by Lieutenants or Lieutenant Commanders.

They were. By the same token, there is no arguing the fact that - sensical to us or not - ops was headed by an ensign.

I'm not saying it has a small engineering staff - I'm saying that it has a small Starfleet engineering staff (and therefore led by an NCO) because most of the crew are Bajoran.

I can see this part. I'd agree that Bajoran staff wouldn't have an office, if indeed they had a grade at all. However, given 'Trek's record of 99% officer : 1% enlisted crew, I'd still say that O'Brien's position could as easily indicate a different rank protocol in UFP than in the modern RL USN as it could indicate the composition of the DS9 engineering staff.

[Captain Seafort]

However, given 'Trek's record of 99% officer : 1% enlisted crew, I'd still say that O'Brien's position could as easily indicate a different rank protocol in UFP than in the modern RL USN as it could indicate the composition of the DS9 engineering staff.

Or it's evidence that Trek actually has a sane command structure, and prior appearances were a product of scale. On a ship the size of the E-D, going down the chain of command half a dozen levels would still leave you with commissioned officers, whereas on DS9 or the Defiant you'd be dealing with NCOs and seamen.

[Mikey]

Yep, could be. It could also be an alternate situation that neither of us has twigged. The basic point is that no matter how nonsensical it seems to us, and no matter what we assume the composition of the respective departments to be, and ensign is in command of VOY's ops department, and an enlisted man is the head of DS9's engineering department.

Odder yet, that means that an enlisted man is part of DS9's senior staff by virtue of him being a department head.

[Captain Seafort]

Odder yet, that means that an enlisted man is part of DS9's senior staff by virtue of him being a department head.

Might me odd, might not be - it depends on how many commissioned Starfleet officers DS9 has. If it started out with just Sisko, Dax and Bashir then maybe not.

[SomosFuga]

However, given 'Trek's record of 99% officer : 1% enlisted crew, I'd still say that O'Brien's position could as easily indicate a different rank protocol in UFP than in the modern RL USN as it could indicate the composition of the DS9 engineering staff.

Or it's evidence that Trek actually has a sane command structure, and prior appearances were a product of scale. On a ship the size of the E-D, going down the chain of command half a dozen levels would still leave you with commissioned officers, whereas on DS9 or the Defiant you'd be dealing with NCOs and seamen.

Assuming that the ratio between commissioned officers/NCO in SF changes between different types of ships and or facilities they should assign more commissioned officers to the Defiant than to other ships and to DS9 than to other stations, remember the Defiant is small but it is one of the most advanced and powerful ships in SF and DS9 is an important post (at least after first contact with the Dominion) so it's to be expected they put both in the hands of more commissioned officers than usual.

Assuming that the composition is similar for most ships and facilities then it should be the same as in E-D.

[Tyyr]

Something to remember about DS9 is that it is a fixed installation. It's not like a starship with a warp core, warp engines, and wandering out beyond them limits of explored space. It's a far less complicated bit of machinery. It's entirely possible that SF didn't think they'd need a commissioned officer to oversee what would amount to just a bunch of simple maintenance. So they grabbed an experienced NCO and put him in charge of the department. The Defiant wound up as an extension of DS9 to a large degree so O'Brien was grandfathered in.

Even today small ships don't often carry a full compliment of officers. The "Captain" might be a lieutenant and those working under him might be a few ensigns and a lot of enlisted personnel. So while Sisko took over command of the Defiant it wasn't large enough for Starfleet to bother finding a Lt. Commander or the like to be chief engineer of a depart of a dozen enlisted men.