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Deepcrush wrote:Amazing that they were never shown as having them isn't it. You'd think a race with cloak would use it...

Sure, but how many times have we seen Breen ships in situations where the Klingons or Romulans would typically use cloaks?

Ergo, they have nothing and were more likely brought up because they were in that area. Just as your own quote says and not because of a cloak.

The quote states that the presumed attack is consistent with the tactics of a cloaked ship. It is also stated that it is consistent with the tactics and technology of the Breen. Therefore Breen tactics and technology are the same as or very similar to those used by cloaked ships. Therefore the Breen probably use cloaked ships.

Captain Seafort wrote:Sure, but how many times have we seen Breen ships in situations where the Klingons or Romulans would typically use cloaks?

Oh, like the attack on earth, counter offensive against the allies, raids into enemy territory and maybe scouting missions to determine the abilities of the KDF after they adapted to the EDW. Just off the top of my head. Yet, they never used them, ergo they don't have them.

Captain Seafort wrote:The quote states that the presumed attack is consistent with the tactics of a cloaked ship. It is also stated that it is consistent with the tactics and technology of the Breen. Therefore Breen tactics and technology are the same as or very similar to those used by cloaked ships. Therefore the Breen probably use cloaked ships.

Saying they have similar tech does not mean they have the same tech. Since we have an entire war in which such tech WOULD have been used but WASN'T used. They don't have it.

Deepcrush wrote:Oh, like the attack on earth

Which is what we're discussing, with the theory that approaching under cloak mau have been why they were able to reach Earth without being detected, engaged and wiped out before they got there.

counter offensive against the allies

A fleet action, in which cloaked ships vulnerability would be emphasised; the first few to decloak would warn off the allies, and they'd be waiting for the others.

raids into enemy territory and maybe scouting missions to determine the abilities of the KDF after they adapted to the EDW.

Which we never saw in any way, shape or form.

Saying they have similar tech does not mean they have the same tech.

They they were described as using cloaked-ship tactics, and their technology was described as consistent with such tactics. The logical conclusion is that they have cloaks.

Since we have an entire war in which such tech WOULD have been used but WASN'T used.

That we know of. We never saw them using cloaks during the war, but that doesn't mean they weren't used, given that we have evidence supporting their possession of cloaks.

Captain Seafort wrote:Which is what we're discussing, with the theory that approaching under cloak mau have been why they were able to reach Earth without being detected, engaged and wiped out before they got there.

Yet they were destroyed before they could level a single city so there must have been warning ahead of time. So if they had cloaks then they must have dropped them "before?" they entered the Sol system. Don't think that works. A surprise attack makes sense but that doesn't mean cloak.

Captain Seafort wrote:A fleet action, in which cloaked ships vulnerability would be emphasised; the first few to decloak would warn off the allies, and they'd be waiting for the others.

Not all parts of an offensive is a massive fleet action. Offensives require both small and large scale operations. Martok's raids into the CU show this is still held true in ST.

Captain Seafort wrote:Which we never saw in any way, shape or form.

Right, we never saw that raid on earth by the Breen. Or heard about how the Dominion was jumping across Romulan space too attack the UFP. Or how the Cardis used hit and run raids to slow the Klingon advance. Forget about those did you?

Captain Seafort wrote:They they were described as using cloaked-ship tactics, and their technology was described as consistent with such tactics. The logical conclusion is that they have cloaks.

Errr, wrong. They were said to be in the area and have similar tech but as has been stated by Data to Picard in another ep was that similar tech does not mean the same tech.

That we know of. We never saw them using cloaks during the war, but that doesn't mean they weren't used, given that we have evidence supporting their possession of cloaks.

Wrong again. You don't have evidence supporting they have cloaks. You have a reason too suspect they may have had them. However this is countered by what we know in the DW.

Ergo, no cloaks.

Deepcrush wrote:Yet they were destroyed before they could level a single city so there must have been warning ahead of time.

Such as a tachyon grid around the solar syatem.

Not all parts of an offensive is a massive fleet action. Offensives require both small and large scale operations. Martok's raids into the CU show this is still held true in ST.

True, but the only part of the operation we saw was the fleet action.

Right, we never saw that raid on earth by the Breen. Or heard about how the Dominion was jumping across Romulan space too attack the UFP. Or how the Cardis used hit and run raids to slow the Klingon advance.

Correct - we never saw them. We saw the aftermath of the Breen attack, we heard about the others, we never saw any of them.

Errr, wrong.

Entirely accurate actually.

Wrong again. You don't have evidence supporting they have cloaks.

We do - see the above statement.

You have a reason too suspect they may have had them.

I.e. evidence.

However this is countered by what we know in the DW.

Wrong. We simply didn't see enough of the Breen in action to make such a conclusion.

Captain Seafort wrote:Such as a tachyon grid around the solar syatem.

Ah, much like the one and only such grid on the Romulan border? Nope, doesn't fit.

True, but the only part of the operation we saw was the fleet action.

I remember seeing a number of squadron and or single ship fights in DS9. Launched by both sides. If they had cloaks they would have been brought up as part of the problem in dealing with them.

Correct - we never saw them. We saw the aftermath of the Breen attack, we heard about the others, we never saw any of them.

But, if they had cloaks. A, they wouldn't be using the Romulan border because of the tachyon grid there. Defeats the whole advantage. B, hearing is still canon. Cloaks were never talked about. Ship building, ground combat, EDW, ODPs and enemy movements were.

{Thought I'd post up the comments for you since you 'forgot' to respect or respond to them.}

Errr, wrong. They were said to be in the area and have similar tech but as has been stated by Data to Picard in another ep was that similar tech does not mean the same tech.

Entirely accurate actually.

Care to prove how or are you just going to ignore it and hope it goes way because you can't?

Wrong again. You don't have evidence supporting they have cloaks. You have a reason too suspect they may have had them. However this is countered by what we know in the DW.

We do - see the above statement.

I.e. evidence.

Err, wrong, again. Reasons of suspect is not evidence. Welcome to reality. Or "R"eality I mean. Just making sure I use capital letters with you...

Wrong. We simply didn't see enough of the Breen in action to make such a conclusion.

Err, wrong... yet again. We have seen them in open battle and have heard of ships in minor detail as to the threats they form. Never were cloaks ever spoken of. End all is they don't have cloaks.

Thank you and good night, I'm out to dinner.

The quote indicating consistency with Breen tech may indicate a residual weapon signature; ion trace or warp signature from propulsion; etc. In the absence of canon showing a Breen ship with a cloak, that quote isn't specific enough to indicate a Breen cloaking device.

Given that the Breen soon after became full combatants in the war with a healthy dose of screen time I'd have expected to have seen more clear evidence if they did have a cloak.

Guess that about settles it.

Since we're on the Breen. What do we think of them on a whole?

Not much. Meant to be sacry-looking, more alien than most aliens, and dangerous with their secret weapon. When plot needs came up, though, they were completely watered down.

I never took them as a "Great Enemy" but just some race that had an advantage. Having a fleet built of light warships that relied on their EDWs is pretty badly thought out. Those EDWs may give them an advantage against warships. I wonder though how useful they would be against something like Starbase 74? It took one hit to bring down the Defiant but even that wasn't instant and they were able to take out a Breen ship. How many times bigger is a Starbase and how many more ships could they take out before losing power, if they even lost power?

Its not a badly thought out fleet, they know they cant really field big ships, probably the reason why they dont go pissing a lot of people off (until they got some powerful friends).

They protect what they have and do a bit of piracy. A nice change. They are what they are.

How do they plan to take earth if something small like DS9 is cutting down Dominion ships by the dozens? Something like Starbase 74 would be like trying to fight a mountain.

I think the EDW is a good idea for a race that knows that they can't match the other powers in terms of fleet numbers or individual ship capabilities. The fact that the EDW was defeated doesn't negate it as a good idea initially.

I don't think they were trying to "take" Earth - I think they were trying to disrupt the highest levels of political and military coordination - plus, get the UFP all scared-like.

True enough. But! Sooner or later if you are fighting the UFP you have to go after Sol. If you just sit and leave it then you're leaving the bulk of the UFPs power intact. Even Cardassia was thought of as a risk if it were just left to build up. Imagine a system that isn't resource poor and is supported by the tech and fleet yards of the UFP.