Fed ground combat again

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Tsukiyumi
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Tsukiyumi »

Deepcrush wrote:I think 12 min may be a bit to long... A squad with M4s and a SAW would have won the battle in a matter of seconds.
I'd say one guy with a SAW in a good position could've handled it.

Also, don't do this. :lol:
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Captain Seafort »

Tsukiyumi wrote:I'd say one guy with a SAW in a good position could've handled it.
Probably, but a GPMG would be a better choice, just in case there are lots of Jem'Hadar - it's better suited to sustained fire.
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Tsukiyumi »

True; they didn't know the Jem'hadar strength, did they?
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Mikey »

I said the whole ep would be 12 minutes - you know, including credit sequences, etc.
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Deepcrush »

Fair enough. Plus, Sisko has to give his speech at some point.
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Mikey »

Now you got it! It's not DS9 without some random moralizing!
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Deepcrush »

True, but to be honest. Atleast when Sisko made a speech, it made sense.
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by kostmayer »

Mikey wrote:I said the whole ep would be 12 minutes - you know, including credit sequences, etc.
And Nog would have kept his leg.

I wonder what kind of modifacations a Ferengi with Engineering skills would make to a robotic leg.
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by SteveK »

Mikey wrote:I read what you said. I repeat - what specific factors led to the conclusion that spaceships preclude the need for boots on the ground? If you can't or won't provide them, then your assertion is empty.
Let's consider what benefits a strong ground-based force has:

If a planet is attacked, they can defeat any ground force that is landed.

They can participate in an attack on an enemy planet.

As far as defending a planet, it seems logical that it would be better to defeat an enemy in space rather than on the ground. Even if your ground forces are superior to the enemy's collateral damage seems unavoidable.

To attack a planet, your ground forces are impotent unless you can fight through space to that planet. From an offensive standpoint your equipping your fleet must take precedence over your ground forces.

I speculate that the need to maintain space superiority led to the decision to support their ground troops with support units that have a dual use--specifically starships and runabout type vessels. For the guy on the ground, it might not have been the ideal solution, but from the perspective of the total war it might be the best possible allocation of resources.

Let me illustrate what I mean with an example. Let's say there are two planetary governments with exactly equal technology and capability. Empire A spends 90% of its military resources on starships (with the remaining 10% dedicated to ground forces) while empire B spends 80% of its resources on starships and the other 20% on ground forces.

What happens in a war? Excluding shit luck, Empire A's fleet will be more numerous and will eventually defeat Empire B's. Let's suppose that empire B's ground forces are sufficiently powerful to repel any ground attack by empire A. What happens then? Empire A's ships stay in orbit and pick away at military targets, but sometimes what they thought was a factory making phasers was actually a hospitable. Oops. At the negotiating table, which side will be in a position of strength? Even if it is a stalemate, which side would you rather be on?

What if Empire A is a bunch of Xenophobes (or maybe they just want to get permanently get rid of one of their rivals so they can expand elsewhere) and they just want to exterminate empire B? What if they decide to blow up 1 small city a day (Hiroshima level of destruction) until empire B decides to agree to their terms? Maybe after a week they up it to 2 cities a day.

If Empire B survives, do you think that they might spend 95% of their military resources on ships? Maybe Empire C is slightly stronger than A or B and for either of them to have any hope in a war they need to spend 99.9% of their military resources on ships. Is that really such a terrible, idiotic decision?
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Jesus Christ, did you read a single thing we've posted? All of your arguments have already been adressed! Read and respond to our posts.

Yes, starships could obliterate everything on a planet if they wanted to. But then they'd lose all resources on that planet, making it worthless for months, if not years, until they can get their own colonies set up. In war, you capture resources, not destroy them. Wiping out resources as you find them, forcing you to rely on an increasingly large and spread out supply train as you advance, is fucking stupid. Do you know how you're going to capture them? That's right, with ground assaults.
So while starships could wipe out everything on a planet and will dictate who wins the war, ground armies are not rendered irrelevant.

Read our posts.
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Deepcrush »

:laughroll:

We really do need a Chakat Award...
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by SteveK »

Rochey wrote:Jesus Christ, did you read a single thing we've posted? All of your arguments have already been adressed! Read and respond to our posts.
That's where I'm afraid we disagree. The entirety of your (plural) argument can be summarized as follows: "Our experience and reading of history up to April 21st 2009 indicates that competency in ground combat is vital to success in warfare, we expect this will remain true over the next several centuries". To which I have postulated several reasons why that may no longer be true in the 24th century Star Trek universe. To which you have responded " "Our experience and reading of history up to April 21st 2009 indicates that competency in ground combat is vital to success in warfare, we expect this will remain true over the next several centuries". This has become more an issue of posting stamina than anything else. I think that we both know where we stand, and we each remain unconvinced. That isn't necessarily a bad thing by the way. My comments were directed specifically at Mikey, who challenged me to defend my alternate theory to the "They're really stupid!" ethos.
Rochey wrote: Yes, starships could obliterate everything on a planet if they wanted to. But then they'd lose all resources on that planet, making it worthless for months, if not years, until they can get their own colonies set up. In war, you capture resources, not destroy them.
Wiping out resources as you find them, forcing you to rely on an increasingly large and spread out supply train as you advance, is f***ing stupid. Do you know how you're going to capture them? That's right, with ground assaults.
So while starships could wipe out everything on a planet and will dictate who wins the war, ground armies are not rendered irrelevant.
So you think that empire B's resource allocation was better planned than empire A's? In an ideal situation I would agree that it would be nice to have space superiority and a good ground force. However, if a government can only guarantee one or the other the best option is space superiority.
Rochey wrote: Read our posts.
I have.
Rochey wrote:We really do need a Chakat Award...

Clearly the Federation has grown over-reliant on their genetically engineered super-whales for aquatic assaults . . .
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Mikey »

"Except for sh*t luck?" In war, SteveK, "plans last until the first shot is fired." Anyway, yes - your logic does work for the one instance you presented of a completely genocidal, xenophobic race. Now, what happens in every other scenario, in which you want to take and hold a planet/not murder the civilian populace?

This is simply another place to apply the most basic lesson of military history, as true for Clausewitz as it is in the fictional 24th century - combined arms win territory. If you want to DBZ a planet or deny a system or larger territory, fleet might is great. On the ground, starships provide only a general and limited type of support. I'd say that your adherence to strictly using starships for support isn't wrong of itself, but too limited. There are scenarios in which other options are necessary.
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Deepcrush »

Plus the HUGE loss of resources. This hurts labor, taxes, supply and recruitment and however long it takes to fix up the planet after you've fucked it over.
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Re: Fed ground combat again

Post by Sionnach Glic »

That's where I'm afraid we disagree. The entirety of your (plural) argument can be summarized as follows: "Our experience and reading of history up to April 21st 2009 indicates that competency in ground combat is vital to success in warfare, we expect this will remain true over the next several centuries"
More or less correct. Except you forgot to mention that simple logic and common sense also back us up on this position.
To which I have postulated several reasons why that may no longer be true in the 24th century Star Trek universe. To which you have responded " "Our experience and reading of history up to April 21st 2009 indicates that competency in ground combat is vital to success in warfare, we expect this will remain true over the next several centuries". This has become more an issue of posting stamina than anything else. I think that we both know where we stand, and we each remain unconvinced. That isn't necessarily a bad thing by the way. My comments were directed specifically at Mikey, who challenged me to defend my alternate theory to the "They're really stupid!" ethos.
Every one of your arguments has been rebutted. You've yet to explain how we're wrong in our assertion that logic dictates that ground combat will still exist and play an important role in wars. Instead, you've simply repeated "but they have spaceships!" as if that somehow disproves our statements.
So, to remind you, the fact that they have starships has already been factored into our arguments. Guess what? They still don't render ground combat irrelevant.
So you think that empire B's resource allocation was better planned than empire A's? In an ideal situation I would agree that it would be nice to have space superiority and a good ground force. However, if a government can only guarantee one or the other the best option is space superiority.
The cost of equipping a single planetary defence force with modern tech in the 24th century would be a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of maintaining massive, M/AM powered warships. Saying that they can't afford it is quite clearly BS.
I have.
Good, we're making progress. Now maybe one of these days you'll consider adressing them, instead of just brushing them off with "but starships make it all irrelevant!"
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