I suppose you could argue that "murder is murder", but when you have the example of someone shooting a serial killer vs shooting a girl scout, that argument sort of falls flat for me.Mikey wrote:Agreed all around. But the morality of what I do to someone isn't dependent on what sort of person they are.Tsukiyumi wrote:What sort of people wouldn't agree to move in such a situation? Scumbags. I don't care much for selfish scumbags.
YOU are involved in the events of INS
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
I thought we were discussing proactive actions, not punitive ones. A better example is the fact that it's no more moral for me to kill a guy who is an obnoxious loudmouth than it is for me to kill said girl scout.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
How obnoxious?Mikey wrote:I thought we were discussing proactive actions, not punitive ones. A better example is the fact that it's no more moral for me to kill a guy who is an obnoxious loudmouth than it is for me to kill said girl scout.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
Lovely, congratulations to you. You also miss the entire point, which is that nobody involved gives a crap whether you would do it or not. YOU DON'T GET THE CHOICE. We don't ask you to move, we don't tell you why you get moved, we just sneak in one night and drag you out of bed in your sleep.Tsukiyumi wrote:If my leaving my house and moving to a virtually identical one would benefit millions of people, I'd gladly move.
What is exactly your standard? Exactly as long as the US has existed - what, 230 years? The Bak'u beat that one already.Ironically, that is exactly my standard. Like when Tholian_Avenger started going on about how his family had lived here for six whole generations, therefore had a stake in this country. My family has been here for about 4,000 generations; I'd say my claim is considerably more valid.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
Even Blackstar-level.How obnoxious?
You know what? Lemme rethink that a minute...
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
In this case it's more a case of anticipating the Ba'ku's decision. If the Ba'ku had been asked instead, then you'd either be moving them with their permission and assistance if they decided to do so, or moving them without their consent if they decided to be selfish cnuts who deserve no better. While it would leave a bit of a bad taste in the mouth if they subsequently protested that they'd have agreed anyway, that's better than the considerable effort and risk of casualties (on both sides) that would have been involved if they'd decided they wanted to stay put.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
Well, if you wanted to do the right thing that would read as "then you'd either be moving them with their permission and assistance if they decided to do so, or leaving them the f*** alone."
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
My point, that I'd made earlier, was that Dougherty's real immoral action was not asking them. If they'd been asked, they might have moved voluntarily. I guess I didn't make that point clear; sorry. Sneaking in, drugging them all and moving them without ever asking would be wrong, I agree. If they had everything explained to them, and they still chose to be selfish scumbags, my sympathy for them evaporates.GrahamKennedy wrote:Lovely, congratulations to you. You also miss the entire point, which is that nobody involved gives a crap whether you would do it or not. YOU DON'T GET THE CHOICE. We don't ask you to move, we don't tell you why you get moved, we just sneak in one night and drag you out of bed in your sleep.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
Mine too. But an immoral action is immoral, whether or not you have sympathy for the subjects of that action.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
I'd say the welfare of billions would justify a mildly immoral action toward a few people.
And, I still maintain that they should have been asked.
And, I still maintain that they should have been asked.
There is only one way of avoiding the war – that is the overthrow of this society. However, as we are too weak for this task, the war is inevitable. -L. Trotsky, 1939
Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
Sorry, I'm just jumping in here, and I apologize if somebody mentioned this before, but wouldn't removing the Baku from that planet significantly reduce their extended lifespan?
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
Yep - they'd resume whatever their natural aging process is.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
Thus would Starfleet be the instrument of their death as a species.
Genocide.......yummy.
Genocide.......yummy.
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
Depends - they're touch and go but they might have a sustainable population. In any event if they did die off it would no more be genocide than taking someone with no chance of recovery off life support is murder.Mark wrote:Thus would Starfleet be the insturment of their death as a species.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
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Re: YOU are involved in the events of INS
The only way that's analagous is if that life support machine had become an inherent part of that person's natural existence.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer