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m52nickerson wrote:The point is that it should be, but apparently not, obvious that those figures are way out of whack.

If it's "obvious" that the figures are wrong then you should easily be able to produce evidence to support the assertion. Kindly do so.

m52nickerson wrote: .....and we may still sit here and debate those quotes. The point is that it should be, but apparently not, obvious that those figures are way out of whack. Then we could come up with some reason that the E-D shield were not at full straight that would make little sense, but would explain the numbers. Or we can face the fact that those number were put in the script to sound big and impressive.

So your taking the lazy mans route? Duelly noted.

I guess if people want to discuss errors in the scriptwriting, they should make a new thread. This is an in-universe discussion, so "the writers screwed up" may be true, but it isn't a valid point in this debate.

Looky what I found in the forum guidelines:

* If you are in a debate with other members on the board, then it is expected that you will debate in an honest and rational way. Reply to your opponent's points, supply evidence for your claims, do not lie and do not answer some of your opponent's points while ignoring others. You should also not deliberately misquote, or selectively quote someone so as to make them to appear to agree with a point they don't. Most importantly, you must be prepared to lose. Going into a debate and rejecting any possibility of defeat is just going to lead to flames and hostility for all involved. If you are beaten in a debate: accept it and admit it.

Everyone loses sometimes; we will not think less of you for losing. We will think less of you for being dishonest about it.

So nickerson, put up or shut up.

m52nickerson wrote:Really, then what is full impulse speed?

The concept of a maximum speed is irrelevent in space - acceleration is what matters. TMP indicates that the refitted E-nil was capable of about 30km/s^2, and Relics states that impulse engine design hasn't changed for two centuries, and that a TMP-era transport could "fly circles" around the E-D at impulse.

Most combat (i.e. every directly observed scene from TWOK onwards) occurs at ranges of a few km, and speeds of a few km/s.

Captain Seafort wrote:

m52nickerson wrote:...and a photon torpedo travels at least 60,000,000 m/s. Just a bit more energy.

Source?

Not that it changes the canon fact (that I quoted) that 400GW of KE is enough to knock down the E-D's shields, single PTs can't do so, and therefore PTs don't have that sort of power.

.....and I poop rainbows and my farts smell like sunshine!

Perhaps you fail to realize this discussion is about why those figures are so wrong it is laughable that anyone would try to use them in a argument unless that person was trying to be intellectually dishonest and only cares about winning.

....and a photon torpedo travels at least 60,000,000 m/s. Just a bit more energy.

Proof? Direct observation shows photorps to travel far less than that.

M52, I'd advise you to actualy start providing evidence, rather than just harping on about the intent of the writers. The intent of the writers is absolutely useless when discussing stuff like how well armoured the E-D is. Why? Because they don't know a single thing about the subject. I'm sure they didn't intend to make the E-D vulnerable to a dreadnought, but that's how it is. Similarly, I'm sure they didn't intend Starfleet to be totaly incompetant in military matters, but that's how it is. Similarly, I'm sure they didn't intend to portray the UFP as a communist nation with immoral principles, but that's how it is.

It's one thing to bring intent into the debate if there's a conflict between visuals and dialogue. When there isn't a conflict, however, intent is irrelevant. WYSIWYG.

m52nickerson wrote:...Perhaps you fail to realize this discussion is about why those figures are so wrong it is laughable that anyone would try to use them in a argument unless that person was trying to be intellectually dishonest and only cares about winning.

Clearly, that isn't what this discussion is about. Like I said, you can create a thread about writing discrepancies if you'd like. This thread is an IN UNIVERSE discussion, meaning the crap writing isn't a valid position to debate from.

I'm almost certain I just said that a minute ago...

Can we just call this one over? m52 is just spinning his wheels and Ateki already gave up on being a dumbass.

I'll give him 'till midday tomorrow (GMT). If he doesn't shape up and start debating honestly.....well, we'll see.

Speaking of shape up, ROCHEY GO POST IN 40K!

It's too late to post coherently right now. I'll post tomorrow, promise.

Rochey wrote:It's too late to post coherently right now. I'll post tomorrow, promise.

Don't make Stig go feral on your ass, with all that it implies...

I guess I could come up with a scenery post as we drive to the safehouse.

You can if you want. Start some short dialog so that people have to post in response. Seeing how our walking friends have left their vocal cords elsewhere.