www.ditl.org

IanKennedy wrote:On other peoples websites...

Waiittaminute........there are OTHER websites?!?

any suggestions for good albeit strange emoticons?

I got mine from the cool kids club, none of you can join 8)

I got mine from the glory that is Google Images.

Teaos wrote:I think ENT screwed up any possibilty of the Romulan war in two ways.

For one Humanity was just two weak. We have way to few ships to do anything and our tech level is to low. There was not a single space power around in ENT which humanity could have taken on in a space war.

Secondly the Romulans were to strong, far to strong, stronger than they were in TOS. They could have destroyed Earth with out us even knowing what the hell happened.

This is largely addressed in the Enterprise books after. Kobayashi Maru leads up to it. Its not canon, but it provides some good answers.

Mikey wrote:What did I walk into?

Yes, Klingons in the TNG era seemed to use "honor" as an excuse to justify what they wanted to do, whether or not it was honorable in an absolute sense. On the other hand, some seemd to feel that their code of honor really didn't apply to non-Klingons.

we can not judge the meanimg of honor for an entirely different culture. It´s like the old samurais, we don´t understand (i know i don´t understand it) the honorable suicide concept, or respect a deffeated enemy´s honor decapitating him or allowing him to suicide.

We also see a huge change in Klingon culture from the time of TOS to the time of TNG. Changes in culture that are as heavy as what we've seen here could easily give rise to a system of Honor that is loose fitting due too the nature of the beast.

Aye, there has been changes in both the Romulan and Klingon societies. Oddly enough, that change seems to have been that they swapped roles.
In TOS, Klingons were sneaky, and subtle schemers.
In TOS, Romulans were honour-bound warriors.
In TNG, Klingons were honour-bound warriors.
In TNG, Romulans were sneaky, and subtle schemers.

It could be due to the "alliance" they shared for a while. After they split, their cultures simultaniousy changed towards the other.

SomosFuga wrote:

Mikey wrote:What did I walk into?

Yes, Klingons in the TNG era seemed to use "honor" as an excuse to justify what they wanted to do, whether or not it was honorable in an absolute sense. On the other hand, some seemd to feel that their code of honor really didn't apply to non-Klingons.

we can not judge the meanimg of honor for an entirely different culture. It´s like the old samurais, we don´t understand (i know i don´t understand it) the honorable suicide concept, or respect a deffeated enemy´s honor decapitating him or allowing him to suicide.

We don't have to understand it. To further your example - in the time before Shokugawa, at least, bushido may have included concepts that were alien to Western eyes, but those concepts were universal within the samurai culture, and weren't applied only as convenience allowed.

One possible mitigating factor for the Klingons was the fact that in TNG/DS9, there were sociological differences between different geographical/cultural groups; Worf telling Quark, for example, of a courtship custom particular to one region on Q'oNos. (sp?) Also, there was no "blanket policy;" we saw both the most underhanded, devious Klingons, as well as Klingons who would put death before dishonor.

indeed, i do believe it was an episode of enterprise that featured sato or the doctor mentioning the bewildering array of klingon dialects on quo'nos, and taken with the fact that the klingons have colonies, there could be immense diversity in klingon discourse and custom, possibly even slightly integrating aspects from other races, subject,enemy,ally etc

Granitehewer wrote:indeed, i do believe it was an episode of enterprise that featured sato or the doctor mentioning the bewildering array of klingon dialects on quo'nos, and taken with the fact that the klingons have colonies, there could be immense diversity in klingon discourse and custom, possibly even slightly integrating aspects from other races, subject,enemy,ally etc

So they were depicted as Alien humans then.
'Cause franckly, imagine an Alien visiting earth today.
We have, what, over 6000 different languages and dialects for a bit more then 7 Billion people spread over 7 continents...
so why should a spacefaring race like the Klingons be any different?

yes, and thus like humans, be prone to vast cultural diversity, and even in cases of globalisation, have idiosyncracies

i didn't say they should be any different, merely that their numbers and acknowledged linguistic diversity could account for the heterozygous variations in honour code

i only hope that aliens would be truely alien, and not just a slight variation of us, as am a bit bored of mainstream sci fi so want humongous jellyfishbirdmenmonkeymushroomcucumber monsters

Sorry, only mono-cultures are allowed in Trek.