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kostmayer wrote:

Rochey wrote: We've gone over the concept of a Jack-of-all-trades style ship on the forum several times. On every occasions it's been decided that they're not a good idea if you plan on sending the ship to war.

I'm pretty sure there's still some dissent over that but still

Not really - he said "if you plan on sending the ship to war." The dissent is over whether or not such ships should make up the general standing fleet.

The fact that all observed GCS bridges have been of the same design and that the E-D's bridge has always remained the same, despite them undertaking a couple dozen different mission types, would suggest that it's probably very difficult and time consuming to change the bridge on a GCS, leading to it being used very little in practice (like the Saucer Seperation, only more useless)

I blame budget restraints because just changing the carpet is still cheaper than building a whole new set each season. The same seems to be true for the hardly used saucer seperation. I admit though that these are "out-of universe" observations.

For an in-universe observation maybe compare to the several bridges we see for the Enterprise-A.
Altough never mentioned - since the whole bridge is supposed to be modular - maybe it also serves as a lifeboat for the senior officers similar to the captains yacht.

Having said all that I admit that if I were the designer I would not have placed the bridge on deck one, I was just searching for more or less reasonable excuses .

There's also the fact that we don't know if the battle bridge is even staffed during combat

I hope it is otherwise I can not see what the point would be? True we never see it but on the other hand when red alert is sounded we also do not see 600+ persons rushing to the "battle stations". It would be a fairly save assumption that the battle bridge is manned at least until the senior staff arrives.

I seriously doubt the Feds have regulations saying they can only use X% of their available firepower in a life or death situation. If they do, then they're even dumber than I already consider them (which is quite an achievement ).

Well not wanting to destroy ships of a nation you hardly know anything about it and is potentially dangerous does make kind of sense. Diplomatic relations are made very difficult due to the fact that you just blasted a few jem'hadar ships out of space. Think maybe back to the gorn-incident were the aliens first seemed utterly hostile but ultimatly an interstellar war was avoided just by talking a bit to each other which is one of star treks core messages imho. At the time of the Odysseys destruction it does make sense that they wanted to flex some muscle but not to the point that the only diplomatic option left would be an all out interstellar war.

The current explaination as to why we never see the various ships firing more than one array at a time is that they can only channel a set amount of power into the entire weapons system (we know all the various weapons systems are linked together, which supports this idea), thus conferring no advantage by firing more than one gun since they all work off the same power source.

A reasonable idea but it fails to explain the situations where we DO see more than one array firing in the same direction on the same ship when it would not be necessary. It seems also strange that they would go to the point of stupidity with the redundancy of phaser emitters (200+ in some arrays) and would then plug it only into one power source, wouldn't it? (Well maybe they don't but I somehow dislike this theory, I admit just a matter of preference.)
It also does not explain the vast differences in type X phaser power ranging from vaporising a quarter of a borg ship to not beeing able to penetrate the shield of an eighty year old bird of prey. Since I am rather a fan of the galaxy class I usually tend to blame the incompetent crew before supposed failures in ship design. What can I say....MrScott before all

If three comparatively tiny ships can take down a battleship with little hassel, I consider it a major problem. That'd be like a trio of WW2 anti-sub destroyers taking down a US battleship.

Well but the Jem'hadar attack ships started really strong and only gradually became the cannon fodder of the dominion. One episode after the Odyssey a wing of attack ships disables the defiant in a matter of seconds wereas the Odyssey was still warp capable after a few minutes of fighting and quite frankly didn't seemed to be all that much damaged. Exploding bridge consules are no indication of actual ship damage since they tend to explode whenever someone is coughing loudly .

On the contrary, its far greater firepower and armour would have probably allowed it to survive with minimal damage.

No. Sorry, just no. I just can not accept that any ship of this size-range would have survived such an suicide ran. I also do like the sovereign but beeing rammed exactly where the Odyssey got rammed the affected ship systems are virtually the same (Main deflector, torpedo tupes, warp core, nacelle) and I have not seen any in-universe indication that the armour of the sovereign is that much tougher. Sure it rammed the scimitar and somewhat survived,... so what? The E-D saucer rammed a whole planet and seemed to be mostly intact or at least in a much better condition than the E-E .

During the Dominion War, it seems Starfleet got a clue and upgraded the GCS line. Given certain differences that have been observed, it's unlikely the ships participating in these battles were "classic" GCSes like the E-D.

I do agree with you here. Having tons of unused space makes it an ideal candidate for ship upgrades. What I do wonder however is - since most of the combat worth of the galaxy lies in the combat section - why we do not see galaxy ships without a saucer section. I do not necessarily mean old galaxys but wouldn't it make sense to crank out combat sections as fast as possible and after the war just add the saucer to enhance it? See also your next quote:

We've gone over the concept of a Jack-of-all-trades style ship on the forum several times. On every occasions it's been decided that they're not a good idea if you plan on sending the ship to war.

I agree, therefore the above statment why they didn't just produce battle sections and completed them later during peacetime.
Since I am new to the forum I also want to apologise if I am raising an issue which already was discussed at great detail.

Ah, we often discuss the same thing again. And again. And again

I blame budget restraints because just changing the carpet is still cheaper than building a whole new set each season. The same seems to be true for the hardly used saucer seperation. I admit though that these are "out-of universe" observations.

Aye. In reality, the idea was clealry limited by the fact that they couldn't be using different sets each episode.

For an in-universe observation maybe compare to the several bridges we see for the Enterprise-A.

The E-A is probably one of the most drastic examples of a bridge being changed, but even then there was little real differences. All the same stations were in much the same locations as they were before. Most of the changes were limited to lighting and decor.

Altough never mentioned - since the whole bridge is supposed to be modular - maybe it also serves as a lifeboat for the senior officers similar to the captains yacht.

Unlikely. When they were evacuating the ship they always abandoned the ship to get to escape pods, rather than just blasting off and using the bridge as one.

Having said all that I admit that if I were the designer I would not have placed the bridge on deck one, I was just searching for more or less reasonable excuses .

Unfortunately, even the most reasonable and likely answers still don't really make up for it.

I hope it is otherwise I can not see what the point would be? True we never see it but on the other hand when red alert is sounded we also do not see 600+ persons rushing to the "battle stations". It would be a fairly save assumption that the battle bridge is manned at least until the senior staff arrives.

Agreed. That the battle bridge is staffed continuously is the most reasonable possibility.

Well not wanting to destroy ships of a nation you hardly know anything about it and is potentially dangerous does make kind of sense. Diplomatic relations are made very difficult due to the fact that you just blasted a few jem'hadar ships out of space. Think maybe back to the gorn-incident were the aliens first seemed utterly hostile but ultimatly an interstellar war was avoided just by talking a bit to each other which is one of star treks core messages imho. At the time of the Odysseys destruction it does make sense that they wanted to flex some muscle but not to the point that the only diplomatic option left would be an all out interstellar war.

If an unknown ship opens fire on you with the intent to destroy your ship, you are perfectly justified in returning fire with intent to destroy. By attacking you, they have by default comitted an act of war. Restricting your personel from defending themselves adequately will just lead to loss of life on your behalf, and probably make your forces out to be weaker than they really are, which could affect negotiations far more than the loss of one ship ever would.

A reasonable idea but it fails to explain the situations where we DO see more than one array firing in the same direction on the same ship when it would not be necessary. It seems also strange that they would go to the point of stupidity with the redundancy of phaser emitters (200+ in some arrays) and would then plug it only into one power source, wouldn't it? (Well maybe they don't but I somehow dislike this theory, I admit just a matter of preference.)
It also does not explain the vast differences in type X phaser power ranging from vaporising a quarter of a borg ship to not beeing able to penetrate the shield of an eighty year old bird of prey. Since I am rather a fan of the galaxy class I usually tend to blame the incompetent crew before supposed failures in ship design. What can I say....MrScott before all

IIRC, the explaination as to why we sometimes see more than one array firing is because they may be attempting to target specific sections of a ship (torpedo launchers, the bridge, etc) which would not require the full power.

Well but the Jem'hadar attack ships started really strong and only gradually became the cannon fodder of the dominion. One episode after the Odyssey a wing of attack ships disables the defiant in a matter of seconds wereas the Odyssey was still warp capable after a few minutes of fighting and quite frankly didn't seemed to be all that much damaged. Exploding bridge consules are no indication of actual ship damage since they tend to explode whenever someone is coughing loudly .

The Attack Ships were only a threat initialy due to their ability to ignore the UFP's shields. Once this ability was countered, they quickly became little more than a nuisance in battle to larger ships.

No. Sorry, just no. I just can not accept that any ship of this size-range would have survived such an suicide ran. I also do like the sovereign but beeing rammed exactly where the Odyssey got rammed the affected ship systems are virtually the same (Main deflector, torpedo tupes, warp core, nacelle) and I have not seen any in-universe indication that the armour of the sovereign is that much tougher. Sure it rammed the scimitar and somewhat survived,... so what? The E-D saucer rammed a whole planet and seemed to be mostly intact or at least in a much better condition than the E-E .

The warp core of the GCS class has been shown to be highly unstable compared to other Starfleet vessels. The most likely explaination for the Odyssey's destruction is that the impact destabilised the warp core, blasting the whole ship apart. As the Sovereign class' warp core appears to be more stable, this should not be an issue.

The actual damage the Attack Ship's impact caused was actualy quite low. It was limited to mostly the destruction of surface-based systems and the breaching of several decks, possibly starting numerous fires elsewhere due to blast damage. While such an impact would have seriously damaged a Sovereign class, its superior armour and core stability would likel have allowed it to survive, though with heavy damage.

I do agree with you here. Having tons of unused space makes it an ideal candidate for ship upgrades. What I do wonder however is - since most of the combat worth of the galaxy lies in the combat section - why we do not see galaxy ships without a saucer section. I do not necessarily mean old galaxys but wouldn't it make sense to crank out combat sections as fast as possible and after the war just add the saucer to enhance it?

The idea that the saucer section is of little use in combat isn't really that good. Not only does the saucer section house the most powerful phaser arrays, but in BOBW Riker felt the ship to be more combat effective with the saucer than without. Losing the saucer would mean removing the ship's biggest guns.

I agree, therefore the above statment why they didn't just produce battle sections and completed them later during peacetime.

See above.

Since I am new to the forum I also want to apologise if I am raising an issue which already was discussed at great detail.

Not a problem. Most of this stuff's been gone over several times before, but it'd probably be easier for you to just fire off questions and learn via debate than reading through months-old threads.

Rochey wrote:The actual damage the Attack Ship's impact caused was actualy quite low. It was limited to mostly the destruction of surface-based systems and the breaching of several decks, possibly starting numerous fires elsewhere due to blast damage. While such an impact would have seriously damaged a Sovereign class, its superior armour and core stability would likel have allowed it to survive, though with heavy damage.

Indeed, the relative lack of physical damage to the Odyssey shows that, regardless of the instability of their power supply, the GCS is a very solidly built ship. Vor'chas were completely ripped apart by similar impacts in "Tears of the Prophets" and WYLB.

The idea that the saucer section is of little use in combat isn't really that good. Not only does the saucer section house the most powerful phaser arrays, but in BOBW Riker felt the ship to be more combat effective with the saucer than without. Losing the saucer would mean removing the ship's biggest guns.

I think Riker was worried about losing the added power of the saucer impulse engines rather than its phasers. Nonetheless, the point that the ships needs to the intact to be at its best stands.

The E-A is probably one of the most drastic examples of a bridge being changed, but even then there was little real differences. All the same stations were in much the same locations as they were before. Most of the changes were limited to lighting and decor.

True, the stations remained almost identical altough they did went from TOS buttons to TNG style okudagrams, it is questionable tough if this is reason enough to change the whole bridge module. Maybe it is a design relic from the old TOS ships were the ships are still so small that you did not have enough ship to hide your bridge in?

If an unknown ship opens fire on you with the intent to destroy your ship, you are perfectly justified in returning fire with intent to destroy. By attacking you, they have by default comitted an act of war. Restricting your personel from defending themselves adequately will just lead to loss of life on your behalf, and probably make your forces out to be weaker than they really are, which could affect negotiations far more than the loss of one ship ever would.

Yeah...you see but here it gets tricky. You say that probably with the knowledge that the dominion wanted an all out war and is only willing to speak with you after you beat them into the dirt. But from the then perspective of the Odyssey-Captain it is a bit more complicated. First there is the very real probability that they violated dominion space without knowing it. That makes the federation the agressor. Then it is never clear that they attack the Odyssey with the intent to destroy the ship until they ram her. Obviously the ds9 crew is shocked more by the fact that they actually did want to destroy the ship then by the suicide run.
Once again think of the gorn who reacted to violation of their space with excessive force and extreme violence but became rather nice chaps once they cleared this misunderstanding. Therefore I say in this delicate situation I would understand if they did use less than maximum force and only tried to achieve their mission and drive the jem'hadar away. (Which worked perfectly, have you ever considered that the reason they commited a suicide attack was that they were not able to destroy the ship in any other way?)

IIRC, the explaination as to why we sometimes see more than one array firing is because they may be attempting to target specific sections of a ship (torpedo launchers, the bridge, etc) which would not require the full power.

Yes, I thought of that but to be honest it just seems like a waste. The ship would loose power long before any enemy would be capable of destroying all phaser emitters on the galaxy class which seems kind of wasteful to me. Please consider your next statement:

The idea that the saucer section is of little use in combat isn't really that good. Not only does the saucer section house the most powerful phaser arrays, but in BOBW Riker felt the ship to be more combat effective with the saucer than without. Losing the saucer would mean removing the ship's biggest guns.

If this is true it more or less negates the idea that the chip is able to channel all phaser energy through one array because the only thing Riker would loose in that case is about half of the ships mass limiting the ships agility.

The warp core of the GCS class has been shown to be highly unstable compared to other Starfleet vessels.

Is it? It seems to be a common feature in ALL federation star ships. Alone from memory I can think of almost any class you want where the crew is in a situation were the warp core goes critical and they are not able to dump the core because this little safety feature is unfortunatly out of order. Defiant, Intrepid all had this problem at least once and both are supposedly more modern ships.

While such an impact would have seriously damaged a Sovereign class, its superior armour and core stability would likel have allowed it to survive, though with heavy damage.

Ok, here I need more information. Were exactly comes this notion that the sovereign has vastly superior armour? The only difference between TNG ships and DS9/VOY ships seems to be ablative armour. It is prominently featured by the defiant, prometheus and uss lakota and since the sovereign is of similar lineage it is reasonable that she also have it. But then why should a galaxy not upgrade to the same standard? Defiant upgraded, The Lakota - a 80 year old ship design - upgraded and I bet so have the most expensive and valuable ships of the federation. True we never see it or have it mentioned it is just a logical assumption. On the other hand what we have seen so far from the sovereign in three movies doesn't impress me at all since she also tends to be the underdog in most fights and I think it is never really established that she is the most capable combat ship of the UFP.

Atekimogus wrote:Yeah...you see but here it gets tricky. You say that probably with the knowledge that the dominion wanted an all out war and is only willing to speak with you after you beat them into the dirt. But from the then perspective of the Odyssey-Captain it is a bit more complicated. First there is the very real probability that they violated dominion space without knowing it. That makes the federation the agressor. Then it is never clear that they attack the Odyssey with the intent to destroy the ship until they ram her. Obviously the ds9 crew is shocked more by the fact that they actually did want to destroy the ship then by the suicide run.

The Jem'Hadar had already committed an act of war against the Federation (i.e. kidnapping Federation citizens). They then compounded this by attacking a Federation starship. Legally, the Odyssey was well within its rights to destroy those ships. Practically, limiting its response after coming under fire, especially after the Jem'Hadar demonstrated their ability to bypass Fed shields and do serious damage to the ship (looking at the Odyssey before the sucide run here bridge was full of smoke, and the nacelles were flickering - it's possible that she had lost warp drive by that point). Holding back under those circumstances would have been utterly stupid. Who was violating whose space was utterly irrelevent.

Is it? It seems to be a common feature in ALL federation star ships. Alone from memory I can think of almost any class you want where the crew is in a situation were the warp core goes critical and they are not able to dump the core because this little safety feature is unfortunatly out of order. Defiant, Intrepid all had this problem at least once and both are supposedly more modern ships.

I've never seen any other ship be destroyed, or almost be destroyed due to engine damage or malfunction. If you've got evidence to the contrary, then please provide it.

Argh! My computer crashed just as I clicked "submit", and I had to type this all up again!

True, the stations remained almost identical altough they did went from TOS buttons to TNG style okudagrams, it is questionable tough if this is reason enough to change the whole bridge module. Maybe it is a design relic from the old TOS ships were the ships are still so small that you did not have enough ship to hide your bridge in?

Althought TOS era ships were a good deal smaller than TNG era ships, there's still plenty of room to relocate the bridge elsewhere within the vessel itself.

Yeah...you see but here it gets tricky. You say that probably with the knowledge that the dominion wanted an all out war and is only willing to speak with you after you beat them into the dirt. But from the then perspective of the Odyssey-Captain it is a bit more complicated. First there is the very real probability that they violated dominion space without knowing it. That makes the federation the agressor. Then it is never clear that they attack the Odyssey with the intent to destroy the ship until they ram her. Obviously the ds9 crew is shocked more by the fact that they actually did want to destroy the ship then by the suicide run.

From the perspective of the Odyssey's captain, concluding that the Dominion force was out to destroy him and his ship is a perfectly rational conclusion.

When a lone ship of an unknown species stumbles into your space, you do not immediately conclude they are coming to attack you. They're hardly going to start a war with one ship. As such, the proper response would be to have two (suitably powerful) ships intercept the new vessel and hail it, to find out just what it's doing there. Going in guns blazing is just a quick way to start a war, and you're hardly going to do that unless you want to start a war.

Given that the three Attack Ships opened fire on the Odyssey without attempting to hail it to get clarification of what it was doing there or to order it to surrender, and instead flew in all guns blazing, the logical conclusion from the Odyssey's point of view is that the three ships are planning to destroy him.

Once again think of the gorn who reacted to violation of their space with excessive force and extreme violence but became rather nice chaps once they cleared this misunderstanding. Therefore I say in this delicate situation I would understand if they did use less than maximum force and only tried to achieve their mission and drive the jem'hadar away.

Correct, the UFP did violate their space unknowingly. However, by choosing to attack and destroy the colonies rather than establish contact and attempt to deal with the problem diplomaticaly, they have comitted an act of war. While they may have been justified, that does not change the fact that attacking the colonies was an act of war. As such, the Odyssey should have responded with all the power at its disposal to defend the Federation civillians in the region. Once the innocent civillians are no longer being shot at, then negotiations can comence.

Which worked perfectly, have you ever considered that the reason they commited a suicide attack was that they were not able to destroy the ship in any other way?

Given the sheer power of the GCS, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't able to destroy the Attack Ships. Ramming the Odyssey was probably the only option the Jem'hadar had left. And even that attempt would have failed had the warp core not been so unstable, as the ship could probably have survived the attack.

Yes, I thought of that but to be honest it just seems like a waste. The ship would loose power long before any enemy would be capable of destroying all phaser emitters on the galaxy class which seems kind of wasteful to me.

Redundancy is a good thing. Having more phaser arrays than you really need to cover all angles of aproach means that you can lose several arrays and still be combat effective.

If this is true it more or less negates the idea that the chip is able to channel all phaser energy through one array because the only thing Riker would loose in that case is about half of the ships mass limiting the ships agility.

There are other components that are likely placed in the saucer section apart from just phasers. Shield generators, EW equipment, and a host of other bits and pieces that would make the ship far more useful. That the saucer section also houses the main impulse engines would mean seriously impacting the ship's speed if you were to remove it.

Is it? It seems to be a common feature in ALL federation star ships. Alone from memory I can think of almost any class you want where the crew is in a situation were the warp core goes critical and they are not able to dump the core because this little safety feature is unfortunatly out of order. Defiant, Intrepid all had this problem at least once and both are supposedly more modern ships.

Indeed, the warp core design itself seems to be inherintly unsafe. That said, no other class of ship has displayed anywhere near the quantity of reactor problems as the GCS. While other vessels did occasionaly have such problems, they had them with far less frequency than the GCS, and for far more inteligent reasons.

Ok, here I need more information. Were exactly comes this notion that the sovereign has vastly superior armour? The only difference between TNG ships and DS9/VOY ships seems to be ablative armour. It is prominently featured by the defiant, prometheus and uss lakota and since the sovereign is of similar lineage it is reasonable that she also have it. But then why should a galaxy not upgrade to the same standard? Defiant upgraded, The Lakota - a 80 year old ship design - upgraded and I bet so have the most expensive and valuable ships of the federation. True we never see it or have it mentioned it is just a logical assumption. On the other hand what we have seen so far from the sovereign in three movies doesn't impress me at all since she also tends to be the underdog in most fights and I think it is never really established that she is the most capable combat ship of the UFP

That the Sov has the ablative armour deployed on the Defiant class makes sense from a common sense point of view. The fact that it was able to take numerous hits from the Scimitar's main guns while unshielded and suffer only minor hull breaches further shows its durability.

The GCS was indeed fitted with ablative armour. The "neck" section in particular seems to have had some armour slapped on it (likely due to the vulnerability of that section).

Judging the Sov's performance from the three glimpses we've had of it is a tad unfair. In FC it took on a Borg Cube. In INS it took on a pair of vessels of a race whose capabilities and technological power we know nothing of. In NEM it took on one of the most powerful ships ever constructed in the AQ. That it appears to be the underdog in all those situations isn't very surprising, any Federation ship would be the underdog in such a situation.

Given that the three Attack Ships opened fire on the Odyssey without attempting to hail it to get clarification of what it was doing there or to order it to surrender, and instead flew in all guns blazing, the logical conclusion from the Odyssey's point of view is that the three ships are planning to destroy him.

I agree to a point and admit that with another captain like Jelico or Kirk the whole outcame would be different. The TNG captains on Galaxy class ships altough seem to be more diplomats then anything else. I was just searching for a possibility why they did use only so little offensive power while taking an impressive amount of punishment. Given the redundance of the ships systems it is hard to believe that they lost most of their offensive power due to a few hits even when their shields are useless.

Once the innocent civillians are no longer being shot at, then negotiations can comence

I agree altough iirc the civilians evacuated to DS9 before entering the gamma quadrant.

And even that attempt would have failed had the warp core not been so unstable, as the ship could probably have survived the attack.

Now that is afaik only speculation. Iirc we see the ship rammed and then explode but no mention why it did so. (Might be wrong though it has been a while). If it is ok please have a look at those blueprints and compare to the section were the ship got rammed.
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/bl ... heet-6.jpg
If there was no mention that the warp core has gone critical I think it is much more likely that the ship was destroyed because the whole forward torpedo room got obliberated but again that is just speculation.

There are other components that are likely placed in the saucer section apart from just phasers. Shield generators, EW equipment, and a host of other bits and pieces that would make the ship far more useful. That the saucer section also houses the main impulse engines would mean seriously impacting the ship's speed if you were to remove it.

You are right I didn't thought of that altough I was under the impression that the main-impulse engine is on the battle section and the two saucer impulse engine are secondary. Without hard data it is probably impossible to say if they gain or loose maneouverability in case of a saucer seperation.

Indeed, the warp core design itself seems to be inherintly unsafe. That said, no other class of ship has displayed anywhere near the quantity of reactor problems as the GCS. While other vessels did occasionaly have such problems, they had them with far less frequency than the GCS, and for far more inteligent reasons.

Your are right of course but please also consider that virtually no other class had so much screen time as the galaxy class. I admit though that one could get the impression but hey, maybe Mr. Laforge is not that competent .

That the Sov has the ablative armour deployed on the Defiant class makes sense from a common sense point of view. The fact that it was able to take numerous hits from the Scimitar's main guns while unshielded and suffer only minor hull breaches further shows its durability.

That is true altough we never hear what kind of disrupter the scimitar is wielding only the amount. Now I admit that it is not likely that they had 52 pea-shooters and that the whole battle is a testament to the durability of this starfleet ship but alas that does not say anything about the durability of another ship class.

Judging the Sov's performance from the three glimpses we've had of it is a tad unfair. In FC it took on a Borg Cube. In INS it took on a pair of vessels of a race whose capabilities and technological power we know nothing of. In NEM it took on one of the most powerful ships ever constructed in the AQ.

It is completely unfair I know that but let me tell you my tale of woe and how I came to dislike the sovereign . First seen in First Contact I thought she was really really cool. New ship, beautiful design seemingly very powerful altough smaller than the previous Enterprise. I liked the model and I liked the layout of the ship. Then came Insurrection and the first fight against rather conventional Aliens and no super threat like the borg and it was disappointing. The cream of starfleet design got pounded by Sona-aliens which are compared to pre-warp romulans when their threat level is discussed. Sure they may be super smart but shouldn't an interstellar federation of 150 members be able to field something better than a rather small alien culture we never heard from? Also what did happen to the ship? The beautiful white model of First Contact just looked better, bigger and more real than the very dark coloured ship from Insurrection. True this may be due to the lightning in the nebula but I just did not like the special effect shots of her.
And then came Nemesis. Altough you have here a great space battle you are once again in a position were the supposed height of starfleet design is no match for a ship some slave-rebels on a moon were able to develop. It makes me wonder why the bajorans never just build a super-space ship and kicked the cardassians out, I guess our space vampires are just smarter . The ship itself looks much better than in Insurrection but what happened is that they added a multitude of torpedo-launchers for no reason and without consideration of the ships design imho. What about torpedo rooms etc. you cannot just slap torpedo launcher onto a hull where it would look cool that is not very sensible imho.
I admit though that this is just my opinion and that I therefore tend to dress down the sovereign a bit. I just do not see the super ship in her many others think her to be.

Atekimogus wrote:I agree to a point and admit that with another captain like Jelico or Kirk the whole outcame would be different. The TNG captains on Galaxy class ships altough seem to be more diplomats then anything else. I was just searching for a possibility why they did use only so little offensive power while taking an impressive amount of punishment.

The answer's very simple (and one you'll hear plenty of the longer you're here): Starfleet is full of morons.

Given the redundance of the ships systems it is hard to believe that they lost most of their offensive power due to a few hits even when their shields are useless.

It wouldn't be the first time a GCS has suffered a massive systems failure from minor damage.

Now that is afaik only speculation. Iirc we see the ship rammed and then explode but no mention why it did so. (Might be wrong though it has been a while). If it is ok please have a look at those blueprints and compare to the section were the ship got rammed.
http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/bl ... heet-6.jpg
If there was no mention that the warp core has gone critical I think it is much more likely that the ship was destroyed because the whole forward torpedo room got obliberated but again that is just speculation.

If the torpedo bay had cooked off you'd have expected the ship to blow up immediately, not just sit there for several seconds before blowing up.

You are right I didn't thought of that altough I was under the impression that the main-impulse engine is on the battle section and the two saucer impulse engine are secondary. Without hard data it is probably impossible to say if they gain or loose maneouverability in case of a saucer seperation.

We do, however, have solid evidence that both Riker and Picard considered the benefit of giving the Borg two targets to shoot at to be outweighed by the loss of the saucer engines additional power (whether they were concerned about that loss from a propulsive or weapons/shields perspective wasn't stated).

Your are right of course but please also consider that virtually no other class had so much screen time as the galaxy class.

The Intrepid has had almost as much, and I don't recall a single incident of it almost being destroyed in the same way the GCS almost was on numerous occasions.

I admit though that one could get the impression but hey, maybe Mr. Laforge is not that competent .

Never mind "maybe". The fact that he thinks neutrinos might smother a nuclear reaction demonstrates his gross incompetence.

That is true altough we never hear what kind of disrupter the scimitar is wielding only the amount. Now I admit that it is not likely that they had 52 pea-shooters and that the whole battle is a testament to the durability of this starfleet ship but alas that does not say anything about the durability of another ship class.

*groans* We had an umpteen-page debate on the Scimitar's weapons not so long ago - the visual evidence points conclusively to it having about half-a-dozen weapons, not 80. As for their strength, they were ripping warbirds apart with ease, demonstrating that the hull of the E-E is at the very least significantly stronger than the foremost ships of the Romulan fleet.

I agree to a point and admit that with another captain like Jelico or Kirk the whole outcame would be different. The TNG captains on Galaxy class ships altough seem to be more diplomats then anything else.

Indeed, Starfleet of the TNG era seems to have put diplomats and scientists in charge of their most powerful ships instead of soldiers. While that'd be fine if Starfleet was limited purely to civillian areas (research and exploration), it's a very bad idea when it's expected to defend the UFP against any outside threats.

I was just searching for a possibility why they did use only so little offensive power while taking an impressive amount of punishment. Given the redundance of the ships systems it is hard to believe that they lost most of their offensive power due to a few hits even when their shields are useless.

We've seen the E-D lose all weapons systems to a single hit on more than one occasion. It's not too outlandish to theorize that whatever powers the Odyssey's torps could have been knocked out in the oppening salvo.

I agree altough iirc the civilians evacuated to DS9 before entering the gamma quadrant.

You may be right, I haven't seen that episode in quite a while.

Now that is afaik only speculation. Iirc we see the ship rammed and then explode but no mention why it did so. (Might be wrong though it has been a while). If it is ok please have a look at those blueprints and compare to the section were the ship got rammed.

Okay, going by those blueprints and eyeballing the damage the Odyssey appeared to have taken, I've worked out a rough image of how much the damage may have extended into the ship:



Red is the areas that were definitely destroyed. Orange is the areas that may have been damaged by the blast wave extending into the ship itself.

Given the extent of the damage, and the fact that damage to unrelated systems has set the WC off before, I don't think it's too far-fetched to conclude that the damage may have caused the WC to overload.

If there was no mention that the warp core has gone critical I think it is much more likely that the ship was destroyed because the whole forward torpedo room got obliberated but again that is just speculation.

While the torpedo bay could easily have been damaged or destroyed (see my pic above), if the torps were to cook off then you'd expect the entire ship to detonate almost instantly. We saw the Odyssey survive the initial impact, wallow in space for several seconds, and then detonate. To me, that fits the profile of a WC failure, which often take several seconds before blowing (Ref: Cause and Effect).

You are right I didn't thought of that altough I was under the impression that the main-impulse engine is on the battle section and the two saucer impulse engine are secondary. Without hard data it is probably impossible to say if they gain or loose maneouverability in case of a saucer seperation.

True. However, in no instance when the E-D was going into a battlefield did it ever seperate purely to increase its combat effectiveness. On every occasion it seperated, it was to act as a lifeboat for the civillian crew on board. That would imply that the saucer does boost combat effectiveness by a noticeable amount.

Your are right of course but please also consider that virtually no other class had so much screen time as the galaxy class. I admit though that one could get the impression but hey, maybe Mr. Laforge is not that competent .

Voyager, an Intrepid class, was seen for just as long as the E-D, and was under far more trying circumstances than the E-D. Similarly, we also saw quite a bit of the E-Nill, the Defiant and the NX-01. None of them suffered anywhere near the frequency of WC failures as the GCS.

That is true altough we never hear what kind of disrupter the scimitar is wielding only the amount. Now I admit that it is not likely that they had 52 pea-shooters and that the whole battle is a testament to the durability of this starfleet ship but alas that does not say anything about the durability of another ship class.

As Seafort pointed out, the exact number of guns the Scimitar has is something of a.....controversial issue around here.

In any case, the fact that they were tearing apart cruisers that were considerable in size and power with ease yet only caused minor damage to the unshielded E-E would seem to showcase its durability.

It is completely unfair I know that but let me tell you my tale of woe and how I came to dislike the sovereign . First seen in First Contact I thought she was really really cool. New ship, beautiful design seemingly very powerful altough smaller than the previous Enterprise. I liked the model and I liked the layout of the ship. Then came Insurrection and the first fight against rather conventional Aliens and no super threat like the borg and it was disappointing. The cream of starfleet design got pounded by Sona-aliens which are compared to pre-warp romulans when their threat level is discussed. Sure they may be super smart but shouldn't an interstellar federation of 150 members be able to field something better than a rather small alien culture we never heard from?

That their threat level was considered low may have been more due to the fact that they controlled very little territory, and presumably only a handful of such ships. Even the Borg would be considered a minor threat if they only had a half-dozen Cubes and one planet, even though each one of those ships could tear through entire fleets.

Again, we know nothing of just how advanced the So'na were. INS seems to imply they've been around for quite a while. As such, it's not inconcievable that they have some pretty nifty tech.

And then came Nemesis. Altough you have here a great space battle you are once again in a position were the supposed height of starfleet design is no match for a ship some slave-rebels on a moon were able to develop. It makes me wonder why the bajorans never just build a super-space ship and kicked the cardassians out, I guess our space vampires are just smarter

The Scimitar is generaly believed to have been constructed by the Romulan Empire prior to Shinzon's coup. That a bunch of slaves could build such a massive and powerful vessel on their own in secret without anyone noticing is beyond any possible explainations. As such, it's far more likely to have been a Romulan super-weapon that Shinzon commandeered when he siezed control of the Empire.

The ship itself looks much better than in Insurrection but what happened is that they added a multitude of torpedo-launchers for no reason and without consideration of the ships design imho. What about torpedo rooms etc. you cannot just slap torpedo launcher onto a hull where it would look cool that is not very sensible imho.

Indeed. The placement of some of the Sov's torp launchers has caused a few debates here over exactly how they're reloaded after firing, and just where all the mechanics are.

I admit though that this is just my opinion and that I therefore tend to dress down the sovereign a bit. I just do not see the super ship in her many others think her to be

Well, you're definitely in the minority there. But don't worry, controversial opinions are fine here as long as you're logical about them.

The answer's very simple (and one you'll hear plenty of the longer you're here): Starfleet is full of morons.

If the torpedo bay had cooked off you'd have expected the ship to blow up immediately, not just sit there for several seconds before blowing up.

Depends, are they not basically the same system. Matter + Antimatter making boom? Whatever prevents the warp core from going boom for a few seconds could also prevent the photons from going boom for a few seconds. Maybe it was a combination of both we will only be able to speculate.

The Intrepid has had almost as much, and I don't recall a single incident of it almost being destroyed in the same way the GCS almost was on numerous occasions.

That is certainly true and I cannot counter with any in-universe argument. Out-of universe the reason is that the writing for VOY is rather different from TNG. Beeing thrown to the other end of the universe is dramatic enough no need to remind the audience that "there is danger, the warp core will explode etc". Also both warp cores are basically of the same design, they look almost identical - apart from size -and since that same technology is around for a few hundred years why should one model be that much more inferior to another one?

*groans* We had an umpteen-page debate on the Scimitar's weapons not so long ago - the visual evidence points conclusively to it having about half-a-dozen weapons, not 80. As for their strength, they were ripping warbirds apart with ease, demonstrating that the hull of the E-E is at the very least significantly stronger than the foremost ships of the Romulan fleet.

I once again apologize, I did not see that particular thread. As for their ripping apart of warbirds you are thinking along the line that newer is automatically better. Afaik it is also very possible that the romulan empire went along starfleets new design doctrines and apart from large superships (not including the scimitar obviously) to smaller, rakish designs. Since neither the new warbird nor the scimitar nor the E-E fought against an old warbird/galaxy class how can we be so sure about their capabilies?

We saw the Odyssey survive the initial impact, wallow in space for several seconds, and then detonate. To me, that fits the profile of a WC failure, which often take several seconds before blowing (Ref: Cause and Effect).

I agree all I am saying is we cannot be 100%. Just a side-question, is the self destruct sequence brought to an end by blowing up the warp core or the ships torpedoes...I am not sure and think I heard of both variants?
When I am writing that the galaxy is the most underestimated class in star trek I do mean exactly things like that. Okey the story needed this ship to be destroyed. A warp core breach seems reasonable but then you have to explain why the various safty features never worked. Why wasn't the core dumped? Why not an emergency saucer seperation, didn't seem like a good idea? DS9 once prevented a reactor breach via directing the overload energy into the stations shields...the same is not possible for a much more modern starship with emphasis on flexibility? Three reasons to prevent/minimze the damage out of the top of my head but no, the story needed the whole ship to be destroyed.
And that is why I rather go with a combination of system failures and think that this soundly designed ship class is underestimated and treated very poorly by the writers .

That a bunch of slaves could build such a massive and powerful vessel on their own in secret without anyone noticing is beyond any possible explainations

True but the audience should not be required to fill such logical gaps. Two seconds of dialogue and the whole film becomes much more believable.

Atekimogus wrote:Depends, are they not basically the same system. Matter + Antimatter making boom? Whatever prevents the warp core from going boom for a few seconds could also prevent the photons from going boom for a few seconds. Maybe it was a combination of both we will only be able to speculate.

The big difference is that the forward magazine was within the area directly affected by the impact. From MA:



Going by this, the torpedoes would have been destroyed in the initial explosion, causing their warhead reactants to mix. Boom. The warp core, on the other hand, is quite a way futher aft, unaffected by the impact itself, as Rochey's diagram shows. Therefore physical damage could not have caused it to explode. At a guess I'd say that shock damage knocked out the containment fields, and the crew didn't have time to eject it (something that's always been depicted as a manual procedure).

Also both warp cores are basically of the same design, they look almost identical - apart from size

Huh? MA:

GCS warp core:


Intrepid warp core:


I don't see how you can call them "almost identical".

since that same technology is around for a few hundred years why should one model be that much more inferior to another one?

Details of the specific design. All nuclear fission reactors are based on the same general technology, but there are vast differences in detail - some are disasters waiting to happen (Chernobyl for example), others are extremely difficult to blow up even if you tried to.

As for their ripping apart of warbirds you are thinking along the line that newer is automatically better. Afaik it is also very possible that the romulan empire went along starfleets new design doctrines and apart from large superships (not including the scimitar obviously) to smaller, rakish designs. Since neither the new warbird nor the scimitar nor the E-E fought against an old warbird/galaxy class how can we be so sure about their capabilies?

We can't. We can, however, assume that their hulls are not substantially weaker than that of the D'Deridex, and that their shields are at least as strong in proportion to their size.

Atekimogus wrote:I agree all I am saying is we cannot be 100%. Just a side-question, is the self destruct sequence brought to an end by blowing up the warp core or the ships torpedoes...I am not sure and think I heard of both variants?

Going by the self-destruct of the E-nil, neither - more like explosive packets placed to destroy classified systems. Note that the engineering hull remained intact until it entered the atmosphere.

A warp core breach seems reasonable but then you have to explain why the various safty features never worked. Why wasn't the core dumped? Why not an emergency saucer seperation, didn't seem like a good idea?

The fact that the former frequently failed is one of the big marks against the GCS warp core, and the latter probably takes too long to be an effective means of escape. The only time it was used in that manner, in Generations, the crew had more warning than usual and still got hit by the explosion.

DS9 once prevented a reactor breach via directing the overload energy into the stations shields...the same is not possible for a much more modern starship with emphasis on flexibility?

DS9 has shields that can hold off entire fleets. The E-D does not. DS9 is also Cardassian technology, which is widely held to be far more rugged than its Fed equivalent.

And that is why I rather go with a combination of system failures and think that this soundly designed ship class is underestimated and treated very poorly by the writers .

The problem is that the very fact that those system failures occur shows that the ship is very poorly designed.

True but the audience should not be required to fill such logical gaps. Two seconds of dialogue and the whole film becomes much more believable.

What logical gaps? I think the film made it pretty obvious, even if it wasn't explicitly stated, that the Scimitar was a Romulan design.