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Considering that in the ds9 fleets we didn't see any other designe as the WP, its nothing unusual to suggest that other designes were builed in limited numbers. Considering that the maine phaser array is probably as storng as the GSC, there is no reason to hold them back during the war.
The lack of them points to, that only a few were builed. That they were unsuccesfull designes.

I was under the impression that the pods were, um, modular, and could be swapped out. Just because we don't see a sensor pod Nebula in a battlefleet doesn't mean there aren't some off watching the enemy border, or something.

Given that most of the ships seen in the DS9 battles were ships designed or converted for war purposes, you don't think it's logical that we'd only see the Nebs that were deliberately designed for combat? That we don't see one with a pod based on scientific equipment is only natural.

mlsnoopy wrote:Considering that in the ds9 fleets we didn't see any other designe as the WP, its nothing unusual to suggest that other designes were builed in limited numbers. Considering that the maine phaser array is probably as storng as the GSC, there is no reason to hold them back during the war.
The lack of them points to, that only a few were builed. That they were unsuccesfull designes.

Let's see... yeah, why else would Starfleet put the ones with weapons pods in their battle fleets? Given two main subtypes - one with an AWACS pod and one with a weapons pod, which would you expect to see in a massed battle group, rather than an intel or recon mission? The fact that we see the weapons-pod subtype in that situation isn't evidence of the lack of others; it's evidence of a rare but actual common-sense decision concerning disposition of materiel.

Rochey wrote:Given that most of the ships seen in the DS9 battles were ships designed or converted for war purposes, you don't think it's logical that we'd only see the Nebs that were deliberately designed for combat? That we don't see one with a pod based on scientific equipment is only natural.

Damned concurrent posts.

Tsukiyumi wrote:I was under the impression that the pods were, um, modular, and could be swapped out.

That is based on what. There is no evidence for such interchangability. Even the pylons are diffrent.
I consider that a myth with no real base.

Just because we don't see a sensor pod Nebula in a battlefleet doesn't mean there aren't some off watching the enemy border, or something.

And that also doesn't mean that they are.

Rochey wrote:Given that most of the ships seen in the DS9 battles were ships designed or converted for war purposes,

Do you have any evidence that ships that fought in ds9 battles are designe diffrently than normal ships, or that any special conversions happened. I was under the impresion that it was just the standart fleet nothing special abaut it.

you don't think it's logical that we'd only see the Nebs that were deliberately designed for combat?

You would be right if the Neb would be the weakest ship in the fleet. But considering that there were much weaker ships used in combat there is no logic that the fed would hold back its 4th most powerfull designe back.

That we don't see one with a pod based on scientific equipment is only natural

Considering that even these would be stonger than the Excelsiors and Mirandas, thats not natural.

Mikey wrote:it's evidence of a rare

And that was my point. The ship is rare. Only seen once. The lack of it points that the designe wasn't a success. Since we know how much crap can be put into the GSC, there is no reason for the Nebula to have a special pod.

it's evidence of a rare but actual common-sense decision concerning disposition of materiel.

Look above.

That is based on what. There is no evidence for such interchangability. Even the pylons are diffrent.
I consider that a myth with no real base.

Thats your choice but the interchange is a rather simple thing for the Neb. If it wasn't designed that way then why have multiple ships of the same class with different designs. Its and OOU reason that fits the IU canon. It may be just a guess but its still the best one we have.

And that also doesn't mean that they are.

Well we did hope that they would be delivering super sized pizzas but that didn't pan out to well.

Do you have any evidence that ships that fought in ds9 battles are designe diffrently than normal ships, or that any special conversions happened. I was under the impresion that it was just the standart fleet nothing special abaut it.

The Akira, Defiant and Upgraded GCS were all introduced during the Dominion War. So not only do you have new ships being introduced but you have older ships being upgraded. AKA the Lakota (Excelsior class) and Venture (Galaxy Class).

You would be right if the Neb would be the weakest ship in the fleet. But considering that there were much weaker ships used in combat there is no logic that the fed would hold back its 4th most powerfull designe back.

Wrong, its ability to both gain info and survive to return it makes it perfect seeing how most of the Dominion border patrols were Bugs and wouldn't be able to take out a Neb to quickly. The Dominion would have to deploy either large numbers of Bugs or start sending BCs to the border which would weaken their main fleets.

Considering that even these would be stonger than the Excelsiors and Mirandas, thats not natural.

Answered above but still. That sub-class of the Neb was built as the Eyes-in-the-skies version. Just like the AWAC. The UFP had a specific idea behind its building and missions.

And that was my point. The ship is rare. Only seen once. The lack of it points that the designe wasn't a success. Since we know how much crap can be put into the GSC, there is no reason for the Nebula to have a special pod.

I can put a shit-ton of gear on a carrier today but they still have planes for recon. The GCS isn't as easy to change around as the Nebs were. You have to gut a GCS where on the Neb you just put on a different pod.

That is based on what. There is no evidence for such interchangability. Even the pylons are diffrent.
I consider that a myth with no real base.

So you think that they're actualy three different, yet almost identical, designs?
The modularity is supported by the fact that the "core" of the ship is identical in every instance, with only the attatched pod being different. If they weren't modular, then they'd be rather foolish designs.

And that also doesn't mean that they are.

I'm pretty sure this is an Appeal To Ignorance fallacy. The fact that we don't see something doesn't mean it's not there.
By this logic, Starfleet never had more than one Intrepid class.

Do you have any evidence that ships that fought in ds9 battles are designe diffrently than normal ships, or that any special conversions happened. I was under the impresion that it was just the standart fleet nothing special abaut it.

I meant that they deployed ships that were suited for combat. Ergo, having a Nebula with a sensor pod in the thick of the battle would be downright stupid. Why? Because it's not intended for combat roles.

You would be right if the Neb would be the weakest ship in the fleet. But considering that there were much weaker ships used in combat there is no logic that the fed would hold back its 4th most powerfull designe back.

Maybe they were elsewhere. Maybe they don't have many of them. Maybe the Neb fleet was engaged in other systems. Maybe they were deployed as garrison ships. Maybe they were found to have some serious drawbacks in combat, and were removed from the frontline. Maybe they were escorting convoys.
The fact is, they exist. That is solid, canonical fact. That we don't see them in the middle of a battle does not change that fact. There are, as I've shown, loads of reasons why they may not be seen on the front lines.

Considering that even these would be stonger than the Excelsiors and Mirandas, thats not natural.

See above.

And that was my point. The ship is rare. Only seen once. The lack of it points that the designe wasn't a success. Since we know how much crap can be put into the GSC, there is no reason for the Nebula to have a special pod.

We only saw one Intrepid. Does that mean the design wasn't a success?
No, it means that we only happened to see one. Given the size of the UFP and the vast amounts of territory Starfleet must cover, it's not surprising we don't see other ships all that often.

Rochey wrote:We only saw one Intrepid.

Nitpick: we saw two - Voyager and Bellerephon (DS9: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"). It doesn't change the point you're making, of course.

As far as the attatching pylons. well you are assuming that the module itself comes off at the top of the pylon. rather it seems as if the interchangable pod also comes with a portion of the support pylon. making the actual separation line below the saucer section

as far as never really seeing the variants. its possible and probable that SF does not send these ships into pitch battle as they do with other nebula class ships, rather they probably use them in the same was the mulitary uses current AWAKS planes, as a battlefield command and control station. the nebula SWAKS could monitor a battlefield at a relitively safe distance and relay realtime information back to a command post or other command ship. or a battlefield commander could be stationed on the ship itslef.


as far as what ship i would pick... I'll take a nebula with a weapons pod. definatly my favorate ship

mlsnoopy wrote:That is based on what. There is no evidence for such interchangability. Even the pylons are diffrent.
I consider that a myth with no real base.

Consider it what you want - whether variants or interchangeable, the difference really doesn't affect anybody's point.

mlsnoopy wrote:And that also doesn't mean that they are.

Do you read things before you click "submit?" Tsu was talking about the possibility of ships being outside the scope of the episodes; you're talking about the definite fact that there are none. The idea of an unseen ship or ships is a valid basis for there being a possibility of AWACS Nebs being extant; but the idea of there not being any unseen ships is a valid basis for the possibility of none being extant, not for the definite fact that none are (as you claim.)

mlsnoopy wrote:You would be right if the Neb would be the weakest ship in the fleet. But considering that there were much weaker ships used in combat there is no logic that the fed would hold back its 4th most powerfull designe back.

You must be outside your head. I had to read that three times, but it still seems that you're saying, basically, "Since the Neb was good enough, there was no reason to send into combat the versions that were better at fighting." Since you seem to have figured out how to use a computer, my brain just won't let me accept the fact that you just claimed that point.

mlsnoopy wrote:Considering that even these would be stonger than the Excelsiors and Mirandas, thats not natural.

As above - it is natural, because there is an even stronger variant of the Neb.

mlsnoopy wrote:And that was my point. The ship is rare. Only seen once. The lack of it points that the designe wasn't a success. Since we know how much crap can be put into the GSC, there is no reason for the Nebula to have a special pod.

No, that wasn't your point, because you quoted a fragment of a sentence in my post, and completely out of context. If you can't make your point, don't twist my words to try and do it for you. I will not take such twisting and quoting out of context this lightly in the future.

Assuming you're being ignorant instead of dishonest, I'll break it down for you. What I really said was the appearance of weapons-pod Nebs in a combat fleet rather than AWACS Nebs was "evidence of a rare but actual common-sense decision concerning disposition of materiel." You used the first half of that sentence as fake support for the idea that one variant of the ship was rare, when even your rampant idiocy can see that in the actual quote the term "rare" referred to the "common-sense decision." Using the first four words of my sentence as a quote to support a point to which it patently doesn't refer is tantamount to outright lying, and I can't stress enough that I will not tolerate you using my name is such dishonest little games.

BTW -

the forum guidelines wrote:You should also not deliberately misquote, or selectively quote someone so as to make them to appear to agree with a point they don't.

[quote"Deepcrush"]Thats your choice but the interchange is a rather simple thing for the Neb.[/quote]

Maybe but wheres the evidence for that.

If it wasn't designed that way then why have multiple ships of the same class with different designs.

I belive I explained that before. Diffrent concepts were tested only one remained.

Its and OOU reason that fits the IU canon

The problem is that we don't know if the pods can be changed.

It may be just a guess but its still the best one we have.

Than why don't we see more SP-Nebulas? If we would see more of them I wouldn't have a problem.

The Akira, Defiant and Upgraded GCS were all introduced during the Dominion War.

Akiras were first seen in FC, before the war. Defiant Ok. The Venture, was it first see in the Way of the Warrior?

So not only do you have new ships being introduced but you have older ships being upgraded.

Only one class was introduced for the DW.

AKA the Lakota (Excelsior class) and Venture (Galaxy Class).

Ok. Now show that there was a massiv program to ugrade the excelsiors. And every GCS that fought in the DW had the added neccel phaser arrays.

Wrong, its ability to both gain info and survive to return it makes it perfect seeing how most of the Dominion border patrols were Bugs and wouldn't be able to take out a Neb to quickly. The Dominion would have to deploy either large numbers of Bugs or start sending BCs to the border which would weaken their main fleets.

Sacriface of Angels the fed went for all or nothing offencive to take ds9. They wakend the defences of Earth and Vulcan to do that. Its stupid not to include there most powerfull ships in the fleet. If the SP would be used you would expect that you would see it againe somewhere.

The UFP had a specific idea behind its building and missions.

SO. Having them in the fleet would give them bette sensor range and more firepower than a few Mirandas.

I can put a s**t-ton of gear on a carrier today but they still have planes for recon.

And what does that have to do with anything. You can put shit of stuf ona carrier but are there any special ships that have a better radar range than a carrier.

The GCS isn't as easy to change around as the Nebs were.

Ok. Do you know whats the point here. The GCS were able to do anything. There is no reason to belive that the Nebulas couldn't do anything. There are not that much smaller than the GSC.

You have to gut a GCS where on the Neb you just put on a different pod.

The pod system isn't neede. The best use of the pod is only to increse its firepower. We know that it doesn't need the pod to do much else.

mlsnoopy wrote:Diffrent concepts were tested only one remained.

You mean, you guess only one remained, but can't really back that up.

mlsnoopy wrote:The problem is that we don't know if the pods can be changed.

How do you use this as an argument if it's actually the goal of the debate?

mlsnoopy wrote:Than why don't we see more SP-Nebulas? If we would see more of them I wouldn't have a problem.

Already explained by at least three different people. The bulk of shots we see are of ships being sent into combat, not on recon or intel missions. Given the choice of an AWACS Neb or WP Neb for a pure combat mission, why would they use the former?

mlsnoopy wrote:Akiras were first seen in FC, before the war. Defiant Ok.

Re-read that. The Defiant also featured in FC, along with those Akiras. How could one be OK, but another contemporary ship not be?

mlsnoopy wrote:Ok. Now show that there was a massiv program to ugrade the excelsiors. And every GCS that fought in the DW had the added neccel phaser arrays.

Fair point on the Lakota/Excelsiors; but isn't that exactly Deep's point about the upgrade to the GCS?

mlsnoopy wrote:Sacriface of Angels the fed went for all or nothing offencive to take ds9. They wakend the defences of Earth and Vulcan to do that. Its stupid not to include there most powerfull ships in the fleet. If the SP would be used you would expect that you would see it againe somewhere.

No, you would expect it to be used as a last-dich resource, and in general to find the eapons-pod variant preferable for combat situations. How many different ways does this need to be said?

mlsnoopy wrote:There is no reason to belive that the Nebulas couldn't do anything.

Except for the fact that there were different variants/modules for different roles. Being able to do anything moderately well and being optimized for one thing very well aren't the same thing, you know.

mlsnoopy wrote:The pod system isn't neede. The best use of the pod is only to increse its firepower. We know that it doesn't need the pod to do much else.

We know? How, exactly? If you have a copy of The Big Secret Book of Stuff that Wasn't Shown But is Still Canon, by all means convert it to a PDF and share it with us.

Rochey wrote:So you think that they're actualy three different, yet almost identical, designs?

No I think that three designes (WP, SP, 4 neccels) were builed tested and only one went into full scale production.
Kinda like the F-22 amd the F-23.

The modularity is supported by the fact that the "core" of the ship is identical in every instance, with only the attatched pod being different.

The point is that we don't know if the SP offers any advatages. We don't even know if thats a SP. But a WP does offer advatages.

If they weren't modular, then they'd be rather foolish designs.

Why? Its the same as the Akira only that the Akira has a WP between the catamaran.

I'm pretty sure this is an Appeal To Ignorance fallacy. The fact that we don't see something doesn't mean it's not there.

Well we know that there are many Wp Nebulas. We know that there is one Sp Nebula. The fact that during the war we didn't see any Sp Nebulas means that not many have been builed. No wheres the reasno to not use your most powerfull ships in an all or nothing attack.

I meant that they deployed ships that were suited for combat.

Ok.

Ergo, having a Nebula with a sensor pod in the thick of the battle would be downright stupid.

Why its still more powerfull than any Miranda? Even the Sp Nebula had no problems desroying cardasians ships.

Maybe they were elsewhere. Maybe they don't have many of them. Maybe the Neb fleet was engaged in other systems. Maybe they were deployed as garrison ships. Maybe they were found to have some serious drawbacks in combat, and were removed from the frontline. Maybe they were escorting convoys.

There are plenty of roles that they could be doing.

The fact is, they exist. That is solid, canonical fact.

We know that one exists.

That we don't see them in the middle of a battle does not change that fact.

That we don't see them means that there are not many. That they had a limited production run.

There are, as I've shown, loads of reasons why they may not be seen on the front lines.

True.

We only saw one Intrepid.

Acualy two and there are probably 3 Inrepids in the Fed.

Does that mean the design wasn't a success?

We don't know. But we do know that there is only one type.

Given the size of the UFP and the vast amounts of territory Starfleet must cover, it's not surprising we don't see other ships all that often.

Well during the DW there were hundrets of ships in one place. The SoA fleet counted 600 ships. You would expect that if there were diffrent types of Nebula you would see them.

[quote"Mikey"]Consider it what you want - whether variants or interchangeable, the difference really doesn't affect anybody's point.[/quote]

Ok.

Do you read things before you click "submit?" Tsu was talking about the possibility of ships being outside the scope of the episodes; you're talking about the definite fact that there are none. The idea of an unseen ship or ships is a valid basis for there being a possibility of AWACS Nebs being extant; but the idea of there not being any unseen ships is a valid basis for the possibility of none being extant, not for the definite fact that none are (as you claim.)

What are you talking abaut?

You must be outside your head. I had to read that three times, but it still seems that you're saying, basically, "Since the Neb was good enough, there was no reason to send into combat the versions that were better at fighting." Since you seem to have figured out how to use a computer, my brain just won't let me accept the fact that you just claimed that point.

Againe what. There is no reason not to send them into combat. The fleets were hundrets of ship strong you would expect that there would be some SP-Nebulas seen somewhere during the war. The question is where are they?

As above - it is natural, because there is an even stronger variant of the Neb.

Not when you are making an all or nothing attack. You use everything that you can.

No, that wasn't your point, because you quoted a fragment of a sentence in my post, and completely out of context. If you can't make your point, don't twist my words to try and do it for you. I will not take such twisting and quoting out of context this lightly in the future.

Sorry.

No I think that three designes (WP, SP, 4 neccels) were builed tested and only one went into full scale production.
Kinda like the F-22 amd the F-23.

Prove the other designs were experimental or decomissioned. It makes no sense for experimental ships to be seen in the situations we saw the Neb variants in, and there was never any statements or comments to that effect.

The point is that we don't know if the SP offers any advatages. We don't even know if thats a SP. But a WP does offer advatages

An AWACS pod offers all sorts of advantages, much like modern AWACS systems would. In military terms, they can be used to expand your fleet's range and dispell the fog of war. In civilian terms, they can patrol and observe larger regions of space than other ships.

Why? Its the same as the Akira only that the Akira has a WP between the catamaran.

The Akira and Nebula are nothing alike.

Well we know that there are many Wp Nebulas. We know that there is one Sp Nebula. The fact that during the war we didn't see any Sp Nebulas means that not many have been builed. No wheres the reasno to not use your most powerfull ships in an all or nothing attack.

How the hell is an AWACS vessel "your most powerful ship"? It's not a combat ship, it's a support ship. They're completely different, and deploying a support vessel to the front lines would be the height of idiocy, because they are not designed for such situations.

Why its still more powerfull than any Miranda? Even the Sp Nebula had no problems desroying cardasians ships.

Because the Miranda is orientated towards combat, the Neb/SP is not. The problem with the Miranda is that it is pretty much obsolete, as evidenced by them getting blown apart rather quickly in combat. That a Neb/SP may be more powerful than a Miranda does not mean they are suited for combat.

There are plenty of roles that they could be doing.

Exactly my point. The fact that we don't see them is not proof that they're not there. We never see cargo ships during the Dominion War, does that mean Starfleet didn't build any?

We know that one exists.

Correct. We also know that there were never any statements or comments by Starfleet personel that it was a unique or experimental ship. If it was, surely Geordi would be interested in checking out a brand new design. But he wasn't, and the ship was treated as though it were unremarkable. That would suggest that the ship was unremarkable, and thus in service as a class.

That we don't see them means that there are not many. That they had a limited production run.

No, it means we didn't see many. Given the roles such a ship would have, that's hardly surprising.

Acualy two and there are probably 3 Inrepids in the Fed.

You're right, there was two, probably three.
But I think you see the point I'm making. We only know of three Intrepids existing.....does that mean that there are only three?

What about Defiant classes? How many of them are in Starfleet? Two, three?
If you took this point of view for every class of ship in Starfleet, and claimed that if we did not see them they're not there, then Starfleet would be simply too small to function. It stands to reason that there are thousands of ships out there that we have not yet seen.

Well during the DW there were hundrets of ships in one place. The SoA fleet counted 600 ships. You would expect that if there were diffrent types of Nebula you would see them.

No, you wouldn't. Why? Because it's not the job of an AWACS vessel to be on the front lines.