What If Vader Had Survived?

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Sionnach put it best. The Dark Side is the ultimate example of the 'Slipery Slope'.

"Oh, I'll only compromise my principles a little. It's for the greater good" leads very quickly to 'Power! Unlimited power!" But it's you doing the driving. You choose your damnation.

Fight, Stitch? Look at Luke in ROTJ! He had just as much right to Fall as Anakin did, but he didn't. He was a Jedi. He chose not to Fall. Just as Anakin chose to Fall all those years ago.

Darth Vader is Anakin Skywalker under a different name. He is responsible for his own actions. He is responsible for his own damnation.

[stitch626]

Eh? So if a man flies into a rage and kills a few dozen people, he's not held accountable? I dunno how things are done in the US, but in Europe said man would find himself in s**t quite quickly.

His mother had just died right in front of him, and the people responsible were right there. In any reasonable court, he would be found not guilty due to extreme emotional distress.
Which is sort of what happened, except no trial. But when he told the Jedi what had happened, instead of being thrown out of the order, he was chastised in a manner suitable to the conditions of the crime.

There's nothing to suggest that Palpatine was doing anything to him but making him believe that his wife was going to die.

Multiple times in canon it has been said that being in the presence of the Sith brings the dark side close to you. And at that time, Palpy wasn't hiding. Palpatine didn't have to do anything, his presence was the coercion.

Was the Dark Side controlling him? Was it making him do these things? Nope.

AT that point, he was out of his mind. The dark side may not have directly controlled him, but it allowed him to do things he wouldn't have done otherwise.




And there is one flaw with your alcoholic example. The dark side of the force is not "taken in" in such a manner. It would be more like this (ignoring the impossibilities of it, I'm just using this as an illustrating point). Say the alcohol, instead of a drink, was part of the air. In order to not take it in, the person would either have to not breath, or leave the area. Well, for some reason, he cannot leave, and so eventually he must breath. Now, its a very small concentration, but after continual exposure, he would be drunk.

It's not that Anakin was forced to the dark side. He was saturated in it (from battle, form the powerful emotions, from Palps presence, etc). Eventually, it had gotten to the point where his decisions were affected by it. And each negative choice allowed it to affect him more and more. About the time he went to Palpatine and ended up dooming Windu, he had already been near corrupted. All he needed was a push, and Palpatine's dark side aura was that push. After that, he was a slave, with no will to fight back.


I hope I responded to everything, if not, let me know.

[Captain Seafort]

His mother had just died right in front of him, and the people responsible were right there. In any reasonable court, he would be found not guilty due to extreme emotional distress.

No, he wouldn't. He murdered the entire tribe - not just those responsible for torturing his mother, but the entire tribe.

Multiple times in canon it has been said that being in the presence of the Sith brings the dark side close to you. And at that time, Palpy wasn't hiding. Palpatine didn't have to do anything, his presence was the coercion.

Sources and quotes please.

AT that point, he was out of his mind. The dark side may not have directly controlled him, but it allowed him to do things he wouldn't have done otherwise.

Just as alcohol does, and as has been repeatedly explained, being drunk does not excuse mass murder.

The dark side of the force is not "taken in" in such a manner. It would be more like this (ignoring the impossibilities of it, I'm just using this as an illustrating point). Say the alcohol, instead of a drink, was part of the air. In order to not take it in, the person would either have to not breath, or leave the area. Well, for some reason, he cannot leave, and so eventually he must breath. Now, its a very small concentration, but after continual exposure, he would be drunk.

It's not that Anakin was forced to the dark side. He was saturated in it (from battle, form the powerful emotions, from Palps presence, etc). Eventually, it had gotten to the point where his decisions were affected by it. And each negative choice allowed it to affect him more and more. About the time he went to Palpatine and ended up dooming Windu, he had already been near corrupted. All he needed was a push, and Palpatine's dark side aura was that push. After that, he was a slave, with no will to fight back.

Very poetic, however it completely ignores the fact that Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Ki-Adi, Aayla, etc also fought in the war, and did not fall. Windu's form of lightsabre combat inherently took him to the very brink of the dark side, but he didn't fall.

Luke Skywalker fought through the rebellion, lost his aunt and uncle to Vader's troops, had his mentor cut down in front of him by Vader, was one of only three survivors from Yavin (most of the rest of whom, including his closest friend, were killed by Vader), saw his gunner killed by Vader's troops, his friend frozen in carbonite by Vader, his right hand chopped off by Vader, and had Vader at his mercy while he was in a red mist, with the Emperor right behind him goading him on.

Given your interpretation, he would have fallen. He didn't. Anakin Skywalker did, through choices he made.

[stitch626]

Very poetic, however it completely ignores the fact that Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Ki-Adi, Aayla, etc also fought in the war, and did not fall. Windu's form of lightsabre combat inherently took him to the very brink of the dark side, but he didn't fall.

Fighting in the war was only part of it. None of them were emotionally attached to someone who died right in front of them. And Aayla got very close to falling, it was only the direct help of another Jedi that kept her in check.

Luke Skywalker fought through the rebellion, lost his aunt and uncle to Vader's troops, had his mentor cut down in front of him by Vader, was one of only three survivors from Yavin (most of the rest of whom, including his closest friend, were killed by Vader), saw his gunner killed by Vader's troops, his friend frozen in carbonite by Vader, his right hand chopped off by Vader, and had Vader at his mercy while he was in a red mist, with the Emperor right behind him goading him on.

Given your interpretation, he would have fallen. He didn't. Anakin Skywalker did, through choices he made.

Strange that, while through all of that, Luke was able to resist, yet some years later, he fell for a short time.

Sources and quotes please.

Will do. May take a while, I don't have any books anymore, so I'll need to search for the quotes/sources.

Just as alcohol does, and as has been repeatedly explained, being drunk does not excuse mass murder.

It may if you did not voluntarily take in the alcohol.
Besides, the effects of alcohol are not the same as the dark side. Alcohol is a depressant, the force is a stimulant. What happened to Anakin would be close to a roid rage than alcohol.

[Sionnach Glic]

His mother had just died right in front of him, and the people responsible were right there. In any reasonable court, he would be found not guilty due to extreme emotional distress.

He did not just kill those responsible. He also killed the women and children of the tribe. Any court of law would have him thrown in jail.

Which is sort of what happened, except no trial. But when he told the Jedi what had happened, instead of being thrown out of the order, he was chastised in a manner suitable to the conditions of the crime.

Eh? I don't recall him ever admitting to anyone but Padmé what happened. And I certainly don't recall him ever being chastised for it.

Multiple times in canon it has been said that being in the presence of the Sith brings the dark side close to you. And at that time, Palpy wasn't hiding. Palpatine didn't have to do anything, his presence was the coercion.

Source?

AT that point, he was out of his mind. The dark side may not have directly controlled him, but it allowed him to do things he wouldn't have done otherwise.

In the same way that alcohol may remove someone's inhibitions to murder.

And there is one flaw with your alcoholic example. The dark side of the force is not "taken in" in such a manner. It would be more like this (ignoring the impossibilities of it, I'm just using this as an illustrating point). Say the alcohol, instead of a drink, was part of the air. In order to not take it in, the person would either have to not breath, or leave the area. Well, for some reason, he cannot leave, and so eventually he must breath. Now, its a very small concentration, but after continual exposure, he would be drunk.

It's not that Anakin was forced to the dark side. He was saturated in it (from battle, form the powerful emotions, from Palps presence, etc). Eventually, it had gotten to the point where his decisions were affected by it. And each negative choice allowed it to affect him more and more. About the time he went to Palpatine and ended up dooming Windu, he had already been near corrupted. All he needed was a push, and Palpatine's dark side aura was that push. After that, he was a slave, with no will to fight back.

So why was Anakin the only one to fall? Obi-Wan was on the front lines just as often, if not more. As were most of the Jedi Council, and indeed most of the Jedi Order.
Meanwhile, Luke was brought up on a farm, had the only family he ever knew murdered horrificaly, fought in a years-long guerilla war where many of his friends died, discovered that Obi-Wan had lied to him, found out that Leia was his sister, and was in the presence of two Sith Lords getting the life zapped out of him. Yet he never turned, despite going through shit just as bad (if not worse) than Anakin did.

Your comments can only lead us to the conclusion that Anakin had damn all willpower of his own.
Or, we can go by his already existing desire for a strong government and see how the Dark Side may have led him to preserve that desire by whatever means possible.

Fighting in the war was only part of it. None of them were emotionally attached to someone who died right in front of them. And Aayla got very close to falling, it was only the direct help of another Jedi that kept her in check.

I find it hard to believe that Anakin was the only one who ever lost someone they loved.

Strange that, while through all of that, Luke was able to resist, yet some years later, he fell for a short time.

Yes, when he became Palpatine's "apprentice" to get inside his Empire. When he was imersed in the Dark Side completely and thought all about it. He "fell" in the same sense that Anakin did - he saw what he wanted, and he saw how he could get it.

Will do. May take a while, I don't have any books anymore, so I'll need to search for the quotes/sources.

Do you happen to know which books they were? I may have them myself, which would speed up the source checking.

[Captain Seafort]

Fighting in the war was only part of it. None of them were emotionally attached to someone who died right in front of them.

Obi-Wan lost both Qui-Gon and Siri Tachi.

Strange that, while through all of that, Luke was able to resist, yet some years later, he fell for a short time.

Not, however, through constant exposure to the dark side, but through Palpatine's trickery and his own arrogance - he fell deliberately, thinking he could control it, and was rapidly proved wrong.

It may if you did not voluntarily take in the alcohol.

Nope. A spiked drink is not an excuse for murder.

Besides, the effects of alcohol are not the same as the dark side. Alcohol is a depressant, the force is a stimulant. What happened to Anakin would be close to a roid rage than alcohol.

The effects are close enough, given that they both remove an individual's inhibitions.

[Deepcrush]

Vader is just Anakin who has been tempered by time and experience.

[Sionnach Glic]

Vader is just Anakin under an assumed name. It's the same person.

[Captain Seafort]

Indeed, especially as "Vader" is a title rather than a name. It's like saying that John Churchill and the 1st Duke of Marlborough were different people.

[Deepcrush]

Hey, I was only putting into SW context.

[stitch626]

Do you happen to know which books they were? I may have them myself, which would speed up the source checking.

Most weren't books, they were graphic novels. And I don't remember the titles. And seeing as I cannot find the specific references, I will concede that point.

Eh? I don't recall him ever admitting to anyone but Padmé what happened. And I certainly don't recall him ever being chastised for it.

Clone Wars, Volume 4 I think.

Obi-Wan lost both Qui-Gon and Siri Tachi.

Yes, and there was a point that he was close to falling. He had help, which kept him for it.

Nope. A spiked drink is not an excuse for murder.

Actually it is. Worst you could be convicted on (short of a spiteful jury) would be manslaughter. At least in the US... I don't know about anywhere else.

The effects are close enough, given that they both remove an individual's inhibitions.

Here's the difference. Alcohol removes inhibitions. Steroids (when they badly affect a person) cause them to lose their mind. I have seen it first hand.
The dark side may remove inhibitions, but it also changes the personality of the person, infusing them with emotions to the point where they are not the same psychological individual.

[Lighthawk]

For what it's worth, I've always taken the dark side to be like a drug with big benefits. It's something you choose to take or not, depending on circumstances or your own belief that the power is worth it. It's addictive, and once on it quitting is hard as hell. It screws with your sense of right and wrong. And it can be very tempting as for any force user it's literally right at hand all the time, they just need to let their emotions into their force use. I've never seen it shown or implied to be something that can force its way into you against your will though. It's like letting a vampire into the house, you have to invite it in. It can trick you, it can tempt you, it can present you with impossible choices, but you still have to say "Come on in." Once you do though, getting it back out can be near impossible.

And as for the whole extreme duress thing, that would not get him off at all. At best he could go for an insanity defense, which would only change his destination from jail to the crazy house. He'd still be locked up for being a danger to himself and society. The only reason he got away with what he did is that the sand people are considered little better than animals, and Tattooni has shit all of a proper government.

[stitch626]

And as for the whole extreme duress thing, that would not get him off at all.

It would and it did. While there was no trial, the Jedi knew about it, and chose not to try him.


Let me ask you this: do you chose to be angry? Do you chose to be sad? Always?

The dark side is the emotional side of the force. As soon as you have a heavy emotion (such as anger) you let it in. You don't chose to open the door.

[Lighthawk]

And as for the whole extreme duress thing, that would not get him off at all.

It would and it did. While there was no trial, the Jedi knew about it, and chose not to try him.

That's because...
1) The Jedi had had their collective heads up their asses for a long time at that point. They had become so removed from normal society that they considered themselves above the normals pretty much.
2) Like I pointed out before, the sand people are largely considered to be little more than animals. No one gives two shits about them.
3) They were in the middle of a serious war, of course they weren't going to make an issue or a fuss about one of their star players at that point. Politics saving a war hero's ass from the fire.

Let me ask you this: do you chose to be angry? Do you chose to be sad? Always?

Cute, but not an excuse. Just because you can't stop yourself from getting angry does not excuse you from being responsible for your actions. If someone calls you a nasty name and you get mad and punch them in the face, guess what, you're in the wrong legally speaking. They can sue you, and you can be tried for assualt. If someone hits your car and you fly into a rage and shoot them, guess what, you'll be tried for murder.

Being mad is NOT a legal excuse. Being insanely mad is not a legal excuse. Granted your lawyer might try to use it to win points with the jury, and hell good enough lawyers might even be able to make the jury feel bad enough to vote not guilty, but that doesn't make it right. You're still likely to have the judge put you in anything from anger management courses to the loony bin depending on how off the deep end you went. A person who can't control himself when angry is a danger to soceity. EVERYONE is going to be mad at times, it's part of life. How you deal with it says a lot about you. It's one thing to want to kill someone for hurting you emotionally, it's another to actually do it.

The dark side is the emotional side of the force. As soon as you have a heavy emotion (such as anger) you let it in. You don't chose to open the door.

As soon as you USE the Force WITH heavy emotion you let in the dark side. Just because a Jedi gets mad doesn't mean the dark side is in him. He has to reach out for the Force with his emotions. You're looking at things backwards, Jedi are emotionally calm because that's the state of mind they need to be in to use the light side, not because the light side makes them that way. Sith are emotionally violent because that's the mind set they need to be in to use the dark side, not because the dark side makes them that way. That's not to say that each side doesn't effect the minds of its users, but its not the starting point.

I think you're looking at in the sense that "an engine is dirty, it must need to be dirty to work." rather than "an engine gets dirty from working"

[Vic]

And as for the whole extreme duress thing, that would not get him off at all.

It would and it did. While there was no trial, the Jedi knew about it, and chose not to try him.


Let me ask you this: do you chose to be angry? Do you chose to be sad? Always?

The dark side is the emotional side of the force. As soon as you have a heavy emotion (such as anger) you let it in. You don't chose to open the door.

Oh for f***s sake, that's the same as saying "the Twinki made me do it!" It is not that you have these feelings it is how you respond to them that IS a choice.