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Duskofdead wrote:A bit of a tangent from the Negh'var, sorry.

A well thought-out and well-written tangent nonetheless. Besides, no-one on DITL has any right to complain about off-topicness given some of the past threads we've had.

I myself still see the Negh'var as the future of the Klingon Empire. It is a heavy warship that would be perfect for a leader of a house to call his flagship. Also, remember that the Klingons are going to spend the next ten years recovering from the Dominion War. 10 years and a whole new generation of warriors who could change the standard of war for the KE. Martok is an old warhorse but even he knows the value of a strong ship. The BoPs are still going to be the largest number of ships in the fleet, of this there is no doubt. The battle cruiser though is out of date and mostly out of service. The Vor'cha will become the new BC and the Negh'var will replace the Vor'cha as the main ship of the line. I would favor a 60/30/10 split for the future rebuild of the KDF.

60% being the BoP. Cheap, fast, somewhat tough scout and raider type ship. This fits with a style of war that Martok enjoys. Hit & Runs, day and night. Attacking supply lines, shipyards, transports and whatever else finds itself without someone guarding them. Also these ships are useful for open attacks against medium targets when in fair number. I would also think that these ships would make up the bulk of the squadrons for the smaller, weaker or just poor Houses of the Empire.

30% being the Vor'cha. The number of these ships built says to me that it wasn't a costly ship to build. Yet it was still pretty good for its uses, as I see it a medium cruiser. I have trouble buying that it was even close to the GCS by standard. It does however prove to be far better then the standard UFP cruiser, my beloved Excelsior. While it does hurt me to say such, I am happy to know that the Excelsior can be upgraded so well (USS Lakota - hehehehe). With some upgrades to weapons and armor the Vor'cha should an equal if not superior ship to the standard GCS. Since it can be built at I'd guess around half the cost then this would make for a promising heavy cruiser design. Lastly I see this as a good "go between" ship. Useful for both defense of planets and patrols.

10% being the Negh'var. Let me say first that I know 10% is a lot for such a large and costly ship. The crew supply and maintenance for this craft would be very harsh to keep up with. But I also have my reasons behind this thought. Based on what we have seen this ship is tough as hell and twice as mean. I would see a single sqaudron of these as enough to hold any planet from any enemy minus sending a fleet to take it. This would mean that the KDF would be able to hold and protect its systems with a small number of powerful ships. Leaving its remaining 90% to act as needed both in war and peace time. Peace time being the most important thing right now for the KE. With the UFP as both close friends and allies, the KE now has easy access to trade and growth that has been denied them for so long. I have also had a thought that in war time these ships would gather to form a massive battleship (You're going to hurt so bad your ansestors are going to cry) fleet for line breaking. The reason for this is that the KE seems to do well in small ship combat but suffers in larger engagments. Such as when fighting Dominion Battle Cruisers or the new Romulan Warbird design (Norexan).

I use the idea of the Negh'var being a defensive ship for several reasons. First off, you can't send a battleship to a trade summit. That would make the host mad and maybe even need some fresh underwear. Second, I have wondered about their speed and range. If you keep them close to home then it doesn't really matter. Third, the most distance that a ship travels or the longer it has to stay active, the more service is needed to keep it going. This wouldn't be a proper ship for border patrol or scouting missions. The BoP is however perfect for this role, mixing good range with low cost. Finally is that keeping the Negh'var on the defense is a great deterant. "Sure, you can come here and attack one of our important worlds. But! We have THESE guys here to greet you when you arrive." I myself don't recall anyone having a good time when attacking a klingon world. Now, they have even more of a reason to stay away.

Anyone have any thoughts?

After speed-reading your post, I think I agree with most of it.

Thanks for that well thought and well spoken reply...

When you say 60/30/10 are you talking In numbers or resourses?

Near as I can tell, you make perfect sense to me, Deep.

I worry about the fact you only have 3 types of ships. Doesn't seem enough to do all the jobs needed in the best possible way.

A small number of diffrent hulls means that you have alot of standardised parts. That helps a lot with logistic, ship maintanince and refits. Of course you can also do a small number of specialised ship specification, that do all the small uniportantz jobs.

Thats more like like what the Cardassians do. The same ship with more bits added.

Well, if you compare it to early 20th century navies it fits quite well. Pre-aircraft carrier their major ships could b split into the following; a battleship to fight big fleet actions, a cruiser to conduct long-range reconnaisance and harras the enemy in big actions, a fleet escort to screen the heavies against torpedo boat/submarine/air attack and to conduct torpedo attacks in fleet actions, and a convoy escort mainly to screen against submarines. When assesed against these basic roles, the Klingons have probably the best-balanced fleet in Trek, with the Negh'var fulfilling the battleship role, the Vor'cha the cruiser, and the BoP the escort roles.

Teaos wrote:Thats more like like what the Cardassians do. The same ship with more bits added.

Galaxy vs. AGT Galaxy

that phaser-lance thing on the AGT enterprise was awesome....i love the difference between the assorted incarnations of negh'vars-> random spikey bits

But having read Deeps' ideas, i think that its pretty well conceived, there is a logical progression with the attack cruisers occupying the old battlecruiser niche and the negh'vars being produced en masse to fulfill the role of attack cruiser against some of the newer federation designs, (i was going to say that in 'Endgame' and 'All Good Things' we see multiple negh'vars, but two piffling ships is hardly an example of soviet mass production so ignore my contagious fannon and stupidity).
Although what about the role of the cruiser birds of prey?
Also although they're produced in the squillions, surely with new designs by the major powers, the birds of prey will severely need upgrading or replacing at some juncture......

otherwise the diddy birds of prey may end up as useful as origami swans unless used against minor races or as interdictors against smugglers and pirate syndicates etc

Birds of prey just need to be cheap and to patrol the boarders. They are useless in all but pack attacks.

Granitehewer wrote:But having read Deeps' ideas, i think that its pretty well conceived, there is a logical progression with the attack cruisers occupying the old battlecruiser niche and the negh'vars being produced en masse to fulfill the role of attack cruiser against some of the newer federation designs, (i was going to say that in 'Endgame' and 'All Good Things' we see multiple negh'vars, but two piffling ships is hardly an example of soviet mass production so ignore my contagious fannon and stupidity).

Not on their own, but consider the situations they were involved in. AGT (assuming there was time-travel involved rather than just a Q simulation) involved a lone medical ship trespassing in Klingon space - not the sort of threat you'd send a battleship to sort out. It is, however, the sort of threat that would be dealt with by a routine boarder patrol. Say, a couple of cruisers.

"Endgame" involved ships operated by a House, not the KDF, and it's unlikely that a House would be able to deploy battleships on a regular basis - note that Duras, one of the most powerful individuals in the Empire, showed up to present his case to become Chancellor in a B'rel.

These two incidents suggest to me that by the early 25th century the Negh'var has fallen into the cruser bracket, and been replaced by a larger, unseen, type as th Empire's premier warship.

Although what about the role of the cruiser birds of prey?

Unknown. The fact that they seemed to have fallen out of favour by the time of DS9 suggests that they were not a success. Perhaps they were intended to replace the K't'inga in the cruiser bracket, but problems were encoutered with the design in long-term service, and they were retired as the Negh'vars were introduced and Vor'chas became more commonplace.

Also although they're produced in the squillions, surely with new designs by the major powers, the birds of prey will severely need upgrading or replacing at some juncture......

The design's probably getting towards the stage where it can't be upgraded any further, but for most of its life it seems to have been regarded as a simple, solid design, that can quite easilly accomodate technological improvements as they've come along. It's noticeable that they've become more vulnerable as technology's progressed - look at the single shot required to destroy the Duras sisters' BoP compared with five needed to take down Chang's.