Fed ground combat again

[Deepcrush]

The armies of WW1, even at their worst in 1915, were still far superior to anything we've seen from the Feds - they had helmets, proper rifles (that wouldn't break if used to hit a Reman over the head ), lots of automatic weapons, and lots of artillery.

True, but the point was (even if they were better equipped then ST troop, which lets face it, isn't a big task) they still fought with tactics of a blind retarded cat.

[Coalition]

One potential advantage to the current method seen in Starfleet is that it allows a larger number of troops to be transported compared to a force that had extensive support vehicles, etc. It would conceivably allow any starship with extra life support the ability to land large numbers of personnel and effectively act as a 'troop transport'. The effectiveness of those troops would not be that high against a proper military though.

I'd have to guess that the Federation hasn't seen 'actual' ground combat in a while, and most of their missions are police actions, where getting enough people on the ground to keep an eye everywhere has been the most often occurring mission. Most of their opponents would not have been that dangerous, likely trespassers, marches, etc, rather than riots and mobs. Basically the Federation has never actually had a ground situation that was an actual threat. At most they would have had to deal with smugglers (which needs tricorders everywhere to be stopped) and/or natural disasters (which needs trained people who have basic medical experience).

The Federation never actually conquers other empires, preferring instead of subtler means of technological aid and cultural conversion.

For the Klingons, their personnel physically mature at ~16, so if they lose a few new people, the remainder have learned hopefully, and replacements are easy to come by. Their buildings seem designed for lots of twists and turns, meaning armored vehicles cannot get in easily. Their main threat is drunken brawls and House fights. Standard procedure for those would be to let the drunks fight and beat up the survivors, while letting the two Houses fight, and making sure it doesn't spill over.

For the Romulans, their Tal Shiar does its best to deal with rebellions beforehand, killing the leaders, then having the troops corral then shoot the accomplices. Again, no real ground combat.

The Cardassians are having to deal with Bajoran guerilla tactics 24/7 (or whatever Bajor's time/week is), so they finally had to deploy an armored vehicle to help their troops walk around.

That would be my guess, simply no real threats have been faced by the Federation or other powers.

[Sionnach Glic]

Perhaps they considered that for whoever controls the space around a planet that any ground force, however well equipped, are sitting ducks, and came to the conclusion (based on their extensive expertise and experience) that their best chance of victory in war comes from maximizing their space power.

So they are idiots who completely disregard any other form of combat but space. Thanks for agreeing with us.

[Mikey]

The armies of WW1, even at their worst in 1915, were still far superior to anything we've seen from the Feds - they had helmets, proper rifles (that wouldn't break if used to hit a Reman over the head ), lots of automatic weapons, and lots of artillery.

True, but the point was (even if they were better equipped then ST troop, which lets face it, isn't a big task) they still fought with tactics of a blind retarded cat.

I would say more that they fought with tactics that were antiquated when used against the most modern equipment of the time, but the result was the same - lots of dead grunts.

Perhaps they considered that for whoever controls the space around a planet that any ground force, however well equipped, are sitting ducks, and came to the conclusion (based on their extensive expertise and experience) that their best chance of victory in war comes from maximizing their space power.

So they are idiots who completely disregard any other form of combat but space. Thanks for agreeing with us.

Now, here I would give Steve teh benefit of the doubt, and allow him some time tor espond to my request - perhaps there is a good reason which he can provide for not needing to support infantry, or for not needing boots on the ground at all. I can't think of such a reason myself...

[Sonic Glitch]

Perhaps they considered that for whoever controls the space around a planet that any ground force, however well equipped, are sitting ducks, and came to the conclusion (based on their extensive expertise and experience) that their best chance of victory in war comes from maximizing their space power.

So they are idiots who completely disregard any other form of combat but space. Thanks for agreeing with us.

Now, here I would give Steve teh benefit of the doubt, and allow him some time tor espond to my request - perhaps there is a good reason which he can provide for not needing to support infantry, or for not needing boots on the ground at all. I can't think of such a reason myself...

With respect, where did Steve say that there was no need whatsoever for boots on the ground? I personally think Coalitions assessment is probably fairly accurate. There hasn't been a real "boots on the ground" conflict since before the founding of the Federation (Earth-Romulan War). And add to that, with the 2293 detente with the Klingon Empire, the peaceniks probably got a big boost in the Federation Council, and the massive space/technological superiority were more than enough to deal with the Tzenkathi and Cardassians (which were more border conflicts than anything), and their standard security forces were enough to handle ground combat.

[Sionnach Glic]

Now, here I would give Steve teh benefit of the doubt, and allow him some time tor espond to my request - perhaps there is a good reason which he can provide for not needing to support infantry, or for not needing boots on the ground at all. I can't think of such a reason myself...

He's had plenty of time already. He's not provided a single reason as to why neutering all ground forces is a good move other than "well, spaceships are powerful".

[Mikey]

There hasn't been a real "boots on the ground" conflict since before the founding of the Federation (Earth-Romulan War). And add to that, with the 2293 detente with the Klingon Empire, the peaceniks probably got a big boost in the Federation Council, and the massive space/technological superiority were more than enough to deal with the Tzenkathi and Cardassians (which were more border conflicts than anything), and their standard security forces were enough to handle ground combat.

Really? Without even looking anything up, I can point to Setlik III and other conflicts in the Cardassian war, as well as AR-558 and other bits of the Dominion War, which featured (brutal) infantry combat, and in which the UFP's vaunted technological superiority availed them very little.

[Deepcrush]

I have the feeling that people are misplacing the "Need for troops on the ground" for the "Need of as many troops on the ground". You may not need them as often but as has been proven by several of (damn well all of!) us that you will still always need such troops. The US Armed Forces once had a total of some 15 million persons enlisted. Now, today, no where near that number. But, does that mean we don't need any persons enlisted, or just don't need as many as when fighting a world war? That answer is pretty simple. The UFP is in the same place. If the UFP kept 100,000 trained and equipped Marines (one third of the number in the service of the USMC today) then they would be able to face off against ten times that number on any planet without much trouble.

The Border War/Conflict/Tea Party, whatever each one of you wants to call it. Would have been over in a matter of weeks with the CU running for mercy. They can't defeat the UFP in a space born conflict and even such a small force of Marines would easily over run any Trek planet.

During the DW there isn't any reason that the number of Marines couldn't be boosted a hundred times its pre-war strength.

[Sonic Glitch]

There hasn't been a real "boots on the ground" conflict since before the founding of the Federation (Earth-Romulan War). And add to that, with the 2293 detente with the Klingon Empire, the peaceniks probably got a big boost in the Federation Council, and the massive space/technological superiority were more than enough to deal with the Tzenkathi and Cardassians (which were more border conflicts than anything), and their standard security forces were enough to handle ground combat.

Really? Without even looking anything up, I can point to Setlik III and other conflicts in the Cardassian war, as well as AR-558 and other bits of the Dominion War, which featured (brutal) infantry combat, and in which the UFP's vaunted technological superiority availed them very little.

Read it again. I was thinking of Setlik as I typed and knew that would come up. Now was it "brutal" infantry combat at setlik or were the cardassians merely brutal to the population?

[Deepcrush]

Read it again. I was thinking of Setlik as I typed and knew that would come up. Now was it "brutal" infantry combat at setlik or were the cardassians merely brutal to the population?

Ever watch someone die? There is no such thing as a none brutal way to die. Even if you die fast, there's an effect on the man next to you. More so when its an enemy that tortures you then kills you off with weapons that burn you alive.

When have the Cardassians not been brutal to anyone they come across... Uniform or not, if the CU is involved, its going to be brutal.

[Sonic Glitch]

Read it again. I was thinking of Setlik as I typed and knew that would come up. Now was it "brutal" infantry combat at setlik or were the cardassians merely brutal to the population?

Ever watch someone die? There is no such thing as a none brutal way to die. Even if you die fast, there's an effect on the man next to you. More so when its an enemy that tortures you then kills you off with weapons that burn you alive.

When have the Cardassians not been brutal to anyone they come across... Uniform or not, if the CU is involved, its going to be brutal.

Fair point. I concede the brutality aspect, but not my original point that apparently up until the DW, SF saw no problems with it's security/boots on the ground forces.

[Deepcrush]

Fair point. I concede the brutality aspect, but not my original point that apparently up until the DW, SF saw no problems with it's security/boots on the ground forces.

That's fine, there's nothing to say they ever felt the need for such as a dedicated ground force. Though, the fact remains that they were plainly stupid for not catching on after thousands of years of history.

[Sionnach Glic]

Simple logic very clearly points out the need for ground combat. We don't even need specific examples of it happening to know that it is inevitable.

[Mikey]

Read it again. I was thinking of Setlik as I typed and knew that would come up. Now was it "brutal" infantry combat at setlik or were the cardassians merely brutal to the population?

According to O'Brien, who was there in an infantry capacity (such as there was,) it was brutal. And the type of urban, building-to-building combat he described is necessarily brutal. I can't help but think that a true, purpose-trained and purpose-equipped infantry would have shortened the duration of events like that and in the process cut down on civilian casualties and collateral infrastructure damage. And "The Siege of AR-558" would have been a 12-minute episode.

[Deepcrush]

I think 12 min may be a bit to long... A squad with M4s and a SAW would have won the battle in a matter of seconds.