GCS Vs 12" Cannons

[Captain Seafort]

If they did not travel faster then that we would not see combat at the speeds we do.

So, if they didn't travel faster than .25c, we wouldn't see combat at about .00001c. How did you come to that conclusion?

Who would sit and move slow when you could up your speed and outrun your enemies' torpedo?

No one. That's why the E-A jumped to warp to outrun Klaa's torp in STV.

Torpedoes also have quite a good range, if their speeds were slower then at least full impulse whole planets could just about get out of the way.

I'm not arguing that torps are slower than full impulse - I'm asking why you think they can travell faster than .25c.

[Deepcrush]

The fact that the writers lack IQ, or just don't do the math is one of the main reason SoD don't work.

Wrong, its the very reason we have SoD. Because we know the writers will fuckup at some point. If things always worked out right then we wouldn't need SoD.

I never said that a large bore weapons are not impressive in real life, just not in the contexts of trek.

Evidence....?

You are right, but then why bring those mistakes up and use them in discussions? There is no point other then to make the work of fiction seem less then what it was intended to be.

TWOK?

Because you're in a debate. The whole point it is find the flaws in things. Try this action... Think, think about what you thought then reply then pay attention to what is being said back.

[Captain Seafort]

I never said that it would not have an affect, just not enough to bring the shields down.

Canon proves you wrong - "The Survivors" shows that the E-D's shields can be brought down by a broadside from a Hipper class heavy cruiser.

[Reliant121]

I never said that it would not have an affect, just not enough to bring the shields down.

Canon proves you wrong - "The Survivors" shows that the E-D's shields can be brought down by a broadside from a Hipper class heavy cruiser.

I'm assuming your basing the figures of an energy impact on the shields with them going down...do you have the figures with you?

[Aaron]

You are right, but then why bring those mistakes up and use them in discussions? There is no point other then to make the work of fiction seem less then what it was intended to be.

TWOK?

The Wrath Of Khan (TWOK). This is a discussion board and it's members obviously want to discuss the flaws of Trek, otherwise we'd just be having a circle jerk about how awesome Spock is and oh! did you see how Uhura's dress complemented her eyes?

[m52nickerson]

So, if they didn't travel faster than .25c, we wouldn't see combat at about .00001c. How did you come to that conclusion?

You fire a torpedo at me at 0.25c, I stay at full impulse the entire battle and as long as I don't turn into you torpedoes they can never catch me.

No one. That's why the E-A jumped to warp to outrun Klaa's torp in STV.

Warp, not just impulse power.

I'm not arguing that torps are slower than full impulse - I'm asking why you think they can travell faster than .25c.

Even at 0.25c they are going to carry a great deal of KE, more so then a naval shell from WW2.

[m52nickerson]

I never said that it would not have an affect, just not enough to bring the shields down.

Canon proves you wrong - "The Survivors" shows that the E-D's shields can be brought down by a broadside from a Hipper class heavy cruiser.

.....or the power of those hits were wrong?

[Captain Seafort]

In "The Survivors", Worf gives the following damage report:

Shields down! Captain, they hit us with four hundred gigawatts of particle energy!

From here, the L/4.4 armour piercing shell as used by the SK C/34 guns of the Hipper class cruisers has a mass of 122 kg, and a muzzle velocity of 925m/s. Using KE=0/5mv², each shell therefore has a KE of just over 52MJ.

The shell was 89.5cm long, and the impact time was therefore 9.68*10E-04 s. The power of a single shell's impact is therefore just under 53 GW. Each ship had 8 guns, so the power of a single broadside was, therefore, approximately 430GW - greater than the number Worf stated, and therefore sufficient to bring down the shields of a Galaxy class starship.

[m52nickerson]

The Wrath Of Khan (TWOK). This is a discussion board and it's members obviously want to discuss the flaws of Trek, otherwise we'd just be having a circle jerk about how awesome Spock is and oh! did you see how Uhura's dress complemented her eyes?

Thank you.

We can discuss the flaws all day long. If we are talking about the capabilities of a ship in the shows and people start to use those flaws as bases for an analysis it don't fly and it ignores the overall storyline.

[Aaron]

.....or the power of those hits were wrong?

Jesus craps man, I gave you a solution (and an out) a couple pages ago; go find a couple fugging quotes that back up your position! Or keep +1ing your way to an admirals position.

Thank you.

We can discuss the flaws all day long. If we are talking about the capabilities of a ship in the shows and people start to use those flaws as bases for an analysis it don't fly and it ignores the overall storyline.

You have to prove that what you say is correct, I even told you how to do that. Prove that Seaforts assertion of low SF shields is an outlier, prove that the flaws of Trek ships are outweighed by their pros. Come on man, you've got DITL and MA on the net, it shouldn't be hard.

[Captain Seafort]

You fire a torpedo at me at 0.25c, I stay at full impulse the entire battle and as long as I don't turn into you torpedoes they can never catch me.

Wrong - if you fire a torpedo at .25 at a ship going full impulse the torpedo will catch up very quickly indeed.

Warp, not just impulse power.

Exactly, because, as you've said yourself, impulse isn't fast enough.

Even at 0.25c they are going to carry a great deal of KE, more so then a naval shell from WW2.

Fair enough, I'll rephrase it: why do you think PTs can travel at anything close to 0.25c?

[m52nickerson]

In "The Survivors", Worf gives the following damage report:

Shields down! Captain, they hit us with four hundred gigawatts of particle energy!

From here, the L/4.4 armour piercing shell as used by the SK C/34 guns of the Hipper class cruisers has a mass of 122 kg, and a muzzle velocity of 925m/s. Using KE=0/5mv², each shell therefore has a KE of just over 52MJ.

The shell was 89.5cm long, and the impact time was therefore 9.68*10E-04 s. The power of a single shell's impact is therefore just under 53 GW. Each ship had 8 guns, so the power of a single broadside was, therefore, approximately 430GW - greater than the number Worf stated, and therefore sufficient to bring down the shields of a Galaxy class starship.

....and a photon torpedo travels at least 60,000,000 m/s. Just a bit more energy.

[Captain Seafort]

...and a photon torpedo travels at least 60,000,000 m/s. Just a bit more energy.

Source?

Not that it changes the canon fact (that I quoted) that 400GW of KE is enough to knock down the E-D's shields, single PTs can't do so, and therefore PTs don't have that sort of power.

[m52nickerson]

Jesus craps man, I gave you a solution (and an out) a couple pages ago; go find a couple fugging quotes that back up your position! Or keep +1ing your way to an admirals position.

You have to prove that what you say is correct, I even told you how to do that. Prove that Seaforts assertion of low SF shields is an outlier, prove that the flaws of Trek ships are outweighed by their pros. Come on man, you've got DITL and MA on the net, it shouldn't be hard.

.....and we may still sit here and debate those quotes. The point is that it should be, but apparently not, obvious that those figures are way out of whack. Then we could come up with some reason that the E-D shield were not at full straight that would make little sense, but would explain the numbers. Or we can face the fact that those number were put in the script to sound big and impressive.

[m52nickerson]

Wrong - if you fire a torpedo at .25 at a ship going full impulse the torpedo will catch up very quickly indeed.

Really, then what is full impulse speed?

Exactly, because, as you've said yourself, impulse isn't fast enough.

See above.

Fair enough, I'll rephrase it: why do you think PTs can travel at anything close to 0.25c?

See above.