Scimitar vs. Sovereign

[Teaos]

I don't have an exact time, I'm watching it on DVD, and you know precisely when I mean - as it's hitting the belly of the Valdore. They curve round in a sort of backwards 'C' path.

Once the shots have left the ship they travel on a perfectly straight line, there is no curving or changing of direction once in flight. I will cover this further at the bottom of this post.

And aiming at the bridge - he used weak disrupters. Well, he didn't, but regardless if he fired f***ing bullets at it, he's still aiming for Picard. You are unable to comprehend this simple fact.

I was joking before about you being retarded but now I am truely starting to wonder, I have said at least half a dozen times Shinzo wasnt fucking rational, either read my posts or GTFO. You claim I ignore your points then you go to out right ignoring my responces to your points.

you are now saying he wouldn't hold back because he doesn't care about Picard because he's irrational

You know there is this delightful colour between black and white called grey.

Shinzo wanted to not hurt Picard since he needed him, then Picard managed to kick the shit out of his new toy ship, Shinzo gets pissed and aims an attack on the bridge (with weak guns). He started off cool calm an collective, then a dozen QT's to his ship latter and getting thrown around he gets pissed and attacks out of rage.

If you're unable to see that the torpedoes take a curved path when they're hitting the Valdore, and that they're the same as the ones hitting the bridge, then you need to get some new glasses.

Ha thats rich considering I have thirds parties agreeing with me yet you seem to be alone in your belief that those disruptors are Torpedoes. There is no arc of firing, no change in flight path once they leave the ship, once more they leave the ship on such a step angle as to make it imposible for them to be torpedoes.

Video again since you apparently havent watched it

You are talking about the destruction of the second Norexean ship at around 1:35?

There is NO movement in the flight path, it is a perfectly stright line from the moment they leave the ship.

The ship flew over the top of the Scimitar, the Scimtar fired numerous shots, each one leaving the ship at a different angle and then traveling in a perfectly stright line to the BOP.

Just because he used them in the opening salvo means nothing

Uh, no. You claim he would go all out, thus he would use his most powerful gun. Make up your mind, he is either going all out and uses his strongest gun, or he is not going all out in which case your debate is as moot.

Just because he used them in the opening salvo means nothing. Just because any ship uses phasers or disrupters before firing a torpedo it means they're holding back?

In the senario we are talking about, yes.

Why did the E-E not start firing quantums from the start?

Because Picard was actually fighting semi smart.

He might not be able to use the big guns - I'm assuming they must have some reload/recharge?

Yeah you just go ahead and assume something we have never had any canon evidence of. You know this debate is starting to make sence... you just change facts to fit your opinion, you know the smart thing to do is form your opinion around the facts, not the other way around.

The only kind of limitation we have ever heard of phasers/disruptors having is over heating, and thats only after heavy use, not 5 shots.

The fact he fires at Picard with ANY weapon shows he wasn't scared of hurting either the E-E or Picard. The end.

Well he wanted to capture the fucking guy before he hit the Federation fleet, he needed to damage the ship so he could capture it.

Teaos: I've just noticed you made a sort of rebuttal to my analysis of the Scimitar, for some reason I never spotted it before. I'd normaly just reply to it anyway, but given that it's three pages back and I'd be interupting your debate with Thorin, I'm going to leave it alone for now. If you want me to reply to it, though, I'm more than willing to.

Its not a big deal, I was just pointing out that he did use some of his other guns when you seemed to think he didnt use them.

He wasn't scared of hurting the E-E

Dispite a direct quote saying he didnt want to hurt them and all the evidence I have given and you have yet to disprove (cause you cant).

I mean come on - how can you NOT hit the shields when they're encompassing the entire ship?!

Numerous times through trek we have seen people try to knock out shields with single shots, this points at weak points or generators, or something that can cause shields to drop.

Oh, teaos... we've also seen a Breen ship take four QTs to go BOOM... your epic shields on this wannabe super battleship are about as epic as the crap I took after dinner.

A dozen QT's and heavy phaser damage and disruptor hits, I repeat, never has a non Borg ship taken a beating like this, and I can't remember the direct number but Data says somethign about the shields still being pretty strong after all that.

EDIT: Found the number, after about a dozen QT's and dozens of hits from high powered phasers and diruptors the shields are only down 30%!!!!! That means they still have 70% of their power remaining, nothing bar a Borg cube ecen come close to this.

EPIC SHIELDS



Ok Thorin I'm going to prove the shots we see are Disruptors not Torpedoes.

Video, please watch

At 0:57 we see the two Norexean ships firing their disruptors at the Scimitar, these disruptor blasts look identical to the shots we see the Scimitar firing latter, which makes sense since they are the same brand of technology.

At 1:06 we see the Scimitar blow the wing off the first Norexean ship, this is done with what appears to be two blasts from the big guns and two from the secondary guns, a few more shots go wide, every single one of these shots travel in a perfectly straight line, not the slightest change in angle. They are also the exact same type of shot as we see it use latter.

1:19 as the E-E banks across the screen the second Norexean fires its disruptors, there is absolutely no change in the flight path of these shots and yet again they are of exactly the same type we see the Scimitar fire.

1:24 again disruptors from the Norexean with no banking, again the exact same type of shot the Scimitar fires.

1:35ish the fly by you for some reason insist has shots that change direction despite the fact that they don't. What's more if you watch the video you'll notice the shots going both ways are the same type - disruptors. And if you look closely again (something you apparently don't do) you notice quite a few of the shots miss, something your torpedoes shouldn't really do. And another thing, the Scimitar fires 7 shots in 2 and a half seconds, that is far too much volume of fire power for a Romulan torpedoe tube. And ANOTHER
Thing, when they impact the ship the impacts llok like disruptor hits, they don't make big explosions, in fact they make hardly any, just like a disruptor.

1:54 the shots get fired out the back of the Scimitar over a arc of what looks like about 70 degrees, that is far to much firing arc for a torpedo tube, yet these are the same guns as we see firing before.

2:00 more shots going in a straight line.

2:12 and finally more shots going in a straight line.

I have definitively proved that the Scimitar only fires its big arse guns and its secondary disruptors. I have third parites who agree that they appear to be disruptors and you have nothing but imagined curving to back up your claim.


Shinzo was holding back against the E-E as shown by him not using his big guns when he could. Fact.

He fired his weaker guns when he could use the big ones. Fact.

The Scimitar absorbed more damage than any ship we have ever seen barring the Borg and still had strong shields. Fact.

Under a competent commander this ship kicks arse. Its cloak is impressive but not amazing as other have pointed out, they really need to work on the ship not showing up everytime it does something.

But everything else from the weapons (Can knock out a new class of Romulans ships in 4 shots) to its shields (absorbs massive damage with little negative effect) to its manoeuvrability (amazing) is kick arse.

It's not a fleet destroyer but it would turn the tide in battle and kick any other ship in the AQ's arse.

Teaos for the win.

[Thorin]

Your entire post is moot because of the fact that you're unable to see that the torpedoes do curve at the 1.38 mark.
And regarding different angles - he has 27 torpedo tubes. Many of these could be paired up at different angles.
The Scimitar fires 7 shots in 2.5 seconds? The E-E has fired them at a rate of 4/s, well beyond the Scimitar's 2.8/s - and we have no proof they all come from the same tube anyway. And none of them miss, not that it adds anything to either argument.

Regardless, they do use torpedoes as shown by their curved path. Try freeze framing it, maybe it'll help you see it rather than your imaginary straight line.
And it takes 9 quantum torpedoes, not 12. That youtube video is wrong, it changes the order of the scenes. HTH.

[Teaos]

Your entire post is moot because of the fact that you're unable to see that the torpedoes do curve at the 1.38 mark

I'm watching that scene for probably the 50th time, there is no banking in the flight path of the shots, they get fired at progressivly stepper angles and then impact, their flight path is straight. Look at the scene just before inpact, you can clearly see all the shots are traveling in a straight line.

But in the chance that they are torpedoes hitting the Norexan and not disruptors... so what? I never said he wasnt going all out against them. I said he is holding back against the E-E which I have proven in multiple points. If anything the existence of torpedoes here would help my case as it proves Shinzo has them to use but doesnt use them against the E-E since all those shots are perfectly straight just like these ones are.

And regarding different angles - he has 27 torpedo tubes. Many of these could be paired up at different angles

All the shots seem to come from exactly the same position. Granted the ship is so large and the angle is odd so they could be from slightly different locations, but while it is possible that they have 3 or 4 torpedo tubes in almost exactly the same place pointed in different directions it is highly unlikely.

The Scimitar fires 7 shots in 2.5 seconds? The E-E has fired them at a rate of 4/s, well beyond the Scimitar's 2.8/s - and we have no proof they all come from the same tube anyway. And none of them miss, not that it adds anything to either argument

The E-E fires in bursts, the Scimitar fires at a very even pase in exactly the same way as a disruptor fires. The fact that they look/act like disruptors leads to the shocking conclusion that they are distruptors.

And it takes 9 quantum torpedoes, not 12.

Still a lot, and as you have pointed out we didnt see the whole battle. My point was the Scimitar takes shit loads of damage and still has shields holding at 70%, epic shields.

[Deepcrush]

To the shields, yes their strong, but are they as strong as SF shields would be on a ship of the same size.... NO! They aren't EPIC shields, just beefed up to match what they were going up against.

[Teaos]

The Sov has the best shields of any Federation ship, it took 2 or 3 disruptor hits to knock through the shields and take out the warp drive...

The Scimitar took at least 9 QT's which I would think are stronger (but we dont know for sure) and heaps of phaser fire and still had 70% shields...

Granted the Scimitar is bigger but it is also powering that cloak which is pretty energy intensive.

So yeah I'm gonna stick with EPIC SHIELDS. Although I will settle for pretty damn good since you came into this saying they were crap like all Romulan shields.

[Mark]

Wouldn't the Scimitar's shields begin recharging between hits? Enterprise took a pretty constant pounding. Scimitar could breath between hits. Could that have had something to do with it?

[Deepcrush]

No, Romulan shields compared to UFP are crap. The points about the Scimitar's sheilds is due to the size of its power plant which Mikey brought up before I believe.

Epic would be UFP shields from a power plant the size of the Scimitar.

The Sov has the best shields of any Federation ship, it took 2 or 3 disruptor hits to knock through the shields and take out the warp drive...

Shields that were back up in seconds...

So yeah I'm gonna stick with EPIC SHIELDS. Although I will settle for pretty damn good since you came into this saying they were crap like all Romulan shields.

They are crap in base to the size of the ship.

[Deepcrush]

Wouldn't the Scimitar's shields begin recharging between hits? Enterprise took a pretty constant pounding. Scimitar could breath between hits. Could that have had something to do with it?

Thats a good point.

[Mikey]

Absolutely it could. Good point, Mark.

[Mark]

Momentary flashes of intelligence.

And now it's gone

[katefan]

I think all this arguing about the details of the Sovereign/Scimitar fight are moot because in the end I found the fight boring as hell. Enterprise vs. Reliant (especially the Genesis Device-like countdown), Enterprise and Excelsior vs. Klingon bird of prey, I've already seen two similar fights to this one and it failed to thrill.

In the final analysis, the fight was boring as hell.

[Teaos]

The Sov had minutes at a time when it had no fire apon it. From what we see in the Battle the Simitar was under moderate to heavy fire almost constantly.

It still stands that the Sov's shields were penitrated in just 3 shots, whether they came back online or not is moot. The Scimitar once took 3 or 4 QT's and a few phaser hits in rapid series and had nothing happen but the standard shower of sparks.

[Mark]

So, the Scimitar's shields while good, may not nessessarily have been better that the E-E's, only have a faster re-charge rate. Or a different power configuration system. Or automatically cycle to rotate full power to the shield under attack. Just a couple of ideas.

[Mikey]

The Sov had minutes at a time when it had no fire apon it. From what we see in the Battle the Simitar was under moderate to heavy fire almost constantly.

It still stands that the Sov's shields were penitrated in just 3 shots, whether they came back online or not is moot. The Scimitar once took 3 or 4 QT's and a few phaser hits in rapid series and had nothing happen but the standard shower of sparks.

The Scimitar wasn't under constant fire like the E-E was. But that's academic; nobody said that the E-E had stronger shields than the Scimitar - we (at least I) said that the Scimitar's shields were no better than what one could expect from "typical" shields scaled up to the power output of such a more massive ship.

[Teaos]

Well the Skimitar is about the same size as a D'Deridex and twice the size of a GCS, yet it can take a beating way better than either.

So no I don't agree its just a standard shield system for a ship that size, it seems to be far superior than one would expect.