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Mikey wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Mikey wrote:I'm not sayin you're being "fanboyish," Thorin - I'm saying that perhaps I've been too averse to it.

I know - I was merely commenting in preparation for the inevitable 'wanktastic' and 'fanboy' ship statements to come.

I agree about coming to a 'terminal velocity', but I'd have though we could get some type 1 burst fires, just to show some physical improvement in the ship - as opposed to simply increasing figures of phaser wattage or shield energy. Perhaps the ones on the 'pod' could be them? Maybe 6 x type 1 burst fires, and 9 x pulse fires? It'd give the torpedos an index of 11745, which isn't noticable in the grand scheme, but just adds that little extra.

What I tried to do was go with the idea that the mechanisms couldn't, or wouldn't, be replaced on a ship this age - instead I tweaked the things that one would think could easily be upgraded: regenerative shielding, fire control (reflected in "range & accuracy,") increased power generation reflected in both warp speed and maneuverability, etc.

Okay, sounds fair enough, but I think if we do any more missions we should be coming up with some more ships that can have some decent technology on - but, of course - accordingly buff up all other [enemy] fleets.

The problem with that though is we wont have much information on any ships we make up. Saying we have an Intrepid in the fleet is easy, everyone instantly knows everything about that ship. The only reason it was suggeted we bring the Paladin in to this was because it was so troughly designed and layed out. Unless someone puts some real work into designing some realistic ships, and by real work I dont mean some weapons numbers and a few paragraphs, then it will get really messy.

Teaos wrote:I'll be doing the work up over the next two days, I've already started and we have basically finished the designing. Only the random stuff and the final shape with doesnt have much inpact on my write up.

But I agree and am going with Reliant, 4,100 is WAY to high. This thing is under 1,000.

Well, I did put it around there, but then the reason I changed it is because the Sovereign and Defiant, the only remotely comparable ships, are very manoeuvrable. I think, then, it should be about the same as the Galaxy. What about the rest of the stats? They seem pretty reasonable to me, taking into consideration normal chronological advancement, and more militaristic approach to ships (ie ripping the crap out).

Teaos wrote:The problem with that though is we wont have much information on any ships we make up. Saying we have an Intrepid in the fleet is easy, everyone instantly knows everything about that ship. The only reason it was suggeted we bring the Paladin in to this was because it was so troughly designed and layed out. Unless someone puts some real work into designing some realistic ships, and by real work I dont mean some weapons numbers and a few paragraphs, then it will get really messy.

It is thoroughly designed, but as said, when you put in some modest upgrades to the Sovereign (essentially upgrades to all quantums), it's not a match. My stats I think are very reasonable for the Paladin, but it keeps in line with the design brief you have all set out, and fits in the right slot when compared to the Galaxy, Sovereign, Akira etc, as it would also do when compared to other fleets and their ships.

And making new ships isn't as complicated as you're making it - because you always start with a base (except for the Paladin, because the Feds had no battleship, or even as now, a real cruiser). So the Intrepid's replacement would have the same design brief as the Intrepid, but more advanced - as it's designed as a scout ship, though, the technologies that are most relevant would have the biggest 'buffs' (though of course, all the others would, too). So a higher speed, better manoeuvrability to enhance its role (taking into account our more militaristic/competant approach), but then standard upgrades, like quantum torpedos, type X phasers etc.

OK I'm going to compare ours to your and show why in my opinion why our one is more realistic.

You have kept the same beam power out put as ours. I see that you up graded the type, personally I dont think that matters really for the RP since its just a name and the end result will be the same.

But since you have stronger phaser arrays that need more power you will have less of them. Its a trade off and both sides have their pros and cons.

Your tube numbers are the same but seem a bit to over powered. You create a new level of burst fire when there is no reason to assume there will be a new level. They may of abandoned that design to move on to the pulse and rapid fire, since the new ships have those types it would seem like that is the case in which case our design is more canon. Even though when you put our design through the calculator, which I have stated many times is flawed, you only get 7750 I think you could bump that up to 9000-10000ish with better quality torpedoes ect. I think your jump to 13000 is a bit to much.

Strangly you have only increased the power of our shields less than 10% of what we have, hardly seems worth the bother since 9 million is plenty strong, remember as well that the shields are run of an independent fusion reactor which needs to increase in size when you increase power.

The speeds seem ok if a little on the quick sde, I havent done the calculations yet but what I was planning on is taking the Sov's speeds, multiply by 1.2 for a 20% boost in speed due to tech improvements, the speed increase/decrease due to armour and added nacelles nicely cancel each other out. That would basically be the speed. I'm still working on other parts of the write up now though so havent gotten to it.

The agilty I really feel should be very close to the 1000 mark. This is a big heavy ship, lots of armour and extra thick bulkheads ect, that would cripple its muneverability.

Strangely I think your numbers for the hull is a bit weak. We basically planned to make a stuppidly strong SIF along with a ectra thick hull and ablative armour. Also armour quality would improve over time since ablative armour was bran new in DS9 pretty much. I;d guess you could knock it up about 1000 points. This ting was primarly designed to take a licking and keep on ticking.

So suprisingly we seem pretty close on our designs. I think the main point of difference is the torpedoes and agilty.

Also bear in mind that while we were designing this ship it was generally accepted we wanted to make the ship as robust as possible. Thus people purposly choose less advanced shields (bubble over form fitting) and more basic tubes so it was easier to maintain and would be more robust. Basically we wanted this ship to be able to ram a Borg cube and come out the other side with only a scrathched paint job

Teaos wrote: Your tube numbers are the same but seem a bit to over powered. You create a new level of burst fire when there is no reason to assume there will be a new level. They may of abandoned that design to move on to the pulse and rapid fire, since the new ships have those types it would seem like that is the case in which case our design is more canon. Even though when you put our design through the calculator, which I have stated many times is flawed, you only get 7750 I think you could bump that up to 9000-10000ish with better quality torpedoes ect. I think your jump to 13000 is a bit to much.

13000 is very comparable to the Akira, and considering that the Akira could have had that sort of power in 2370, 20 years previous, it does bring it down to earth that 13000 is completely reasonable. The calculator isn't flawed when it is simply a statistical analysis. Yes, it is (badly) flawed when it comes to manoeuvrability, range etc, but NOT on number of torpedos x type of torpedos x type of launcher x rate of fire etc. Those are all quantitive, not qualititve, as you seem to keep repeating.

Strangly you have only increased the power of our shields less than 10% of what we have, hardly seems worth the bother since 9 million is plenty strong, remember as well that the shields are run of an independent fusion reactor which needs to increase in size when you increase power.

Your brief says 7 million, but if it's 9 million that's fine. I only put it 9.75 or whatever I did it as to make it seem a bit more realistic, I'm sure they wouldn't round to the nearest quintillion.

The agilty I really feel should be very close to the 1000 mark. This is a big heavy ship, lots of armour and extra thick bulkheads ect, that would cripple its muneverability.

Seems fair enough, though I'd still say it would be better than a nearly 30 year old ship on the manoeuvrable side - they're similar sizes, but the Paladin would be more powerful.

Strangely I think your numbers for the hull is a bit weak. We basically planned to make a stuppidly strong SIF along with a ectra thick hull and ablative armour. Also armour quality would improve over time since ablative armour was bran new in DS9 pretty much. I;d guess you could knock it up about 1000 points. This ting was primarly designed to take a licking and keep on ticking.

Well that's the problem with Graham's calculator, it's not got enough variables on the armour.

So suprisingly we seem pretty close on our designs. I think the main point of difference is the torpedoes and agilty.

Agility is understandable - I only put it there for the reason stated (the Defiant and Sovereign are manoeuvrable). But the torpedos are so increadibly behind the times. Yes, I know the Akira is a torpedo boat, but having 67% of the torpedo tubes on Starfleet's best ship as sub-standard, 20+ year old designs is increadibly poor.
The type 5 burst fire was just put in there to show that, while the Paladin is made to be robust in its shield design, tried and tested designs etc, it must still have SOME new technology, being the best and latest. A type 5 quantum launcher is just that - it's not a new type of launcher per se - not a burst fire to a pulse fire - it's just an improved burst fire.

As said, and many others have agreed, my stats are very reasonable. I'm not sure if you got the shields wrong (your design says 7 million), but approaching 10 million is more accurate IMO, as are better torpedos.

And regarding the speed, the Sovereign seems to be a ship made for speed, you'd expect it to be keeping with the times as you get to 2390, which is why I made it that little bit faster. Apart from the Daystrom's slightly strong torpedos, the stats for the 4 ships I gave I think are all reasonable and realistic, compared to each other, their roles, compared to other fleets etc.

Your brief says 7 million, but if it's 9 million that's fine. I only put it 9.75 or whatever I did it as to make it seem a bit more realistic, I'm sure they wouldn't round to the nearest quintillion.

Yeah your right the brief does say 7 mill (you'd think I would remember the stats of the ship I helped design... ), well we do have that extra space to play around with but as I said increasing the power increases the size of the fusion reactor. I pretty oped to making them more powerful as I always wanted this thing to be able to take a beating. BUt for the sake of the write up can we keep it at a nice round number like 9 or 10 million since that related to the fusion reactor size.

13000 is very comparable to the Akira, and considering that the Akira could have had that sort of power in 2370, 20 years previous, it does bring it down to earth that 13000 is completely reasonable. The calculator isn't flawed when it is simply a statistical analysis. Yes, it is (badly) flawed when it comes to manoeuvrability, range etc, but NOT on number of torpedos x type of torpedos x type of launcher x rate of fire etc. Those are all quantitive, not qualititve, as you seem to keep repeating.

I agree that the torpedoes would be quite a lot stronger after 20 years. I have no problem with that, I mearly stating I dont think there would be a next generation of burst fire tubes since rapid fire and pulse seem to have taken over. But I still think 13k is still pushing the upper limit of power increase. 10-11k seems more realistic with out the tube upgrade.

Seems fair enough, though I'd still say it would be better than a nearly 30 year old ship on the manoeuvrable side - they're similar sizes, but the Paladin would be more powerful.

Anything between 900-1400 is fine with me. But I always imagined this thing he be very un-munoverable, its part of its charm. Also adds a nice dramitc flair to the story telling having this thing have to through its self into turn to make a shot with its heavy guns.

The type 5 burst fire was just put in there to show that, while the Paladin is made to be robust in its shield design, tried and tested designs etc, it must still have SOME new technology, being the best and latest. A type 5 quantum launcher is just that - it's not a new type of launcher per se - not a burst fire to a pulse fire - it's just an improved burst fire.

I agree that there would be new tech but I just dont think that the burst fire tube is it. The new tech would be better targetting systems, the lance, and other bits we are putting in (if anyone has any more ideas add them to the "random stuff" thread).

As said, and many others have agreed, my stats are very reasonable. I'm not sure if you got the shields wrong (your design says 7 million), but approaching 10 million is more accurate IMO, as are better torpedos.

Seeing them written out hre I agree most of them are resonable, just the few points I made I feel are a bit much.

While I'm mostly ok with the stats posted barring the points I raised for the Paladin I agree with Mikey logic about upgrading existing ships, there is only a certain amount you can do to them, and even if you can do it doesnt mean it will happen. They migh just only do the easy upgrades and move the ship doen to more basic tasks while building newer ship with the upgrades included in their design.

The Paladin design in my mind has always been a ship that was intended to literally plough through enemy lines absorbing huge amounts of damage with little negative effect on it. While it does have pretty damn good fire power it is not as powerful as is possible due to several trade offs in survivabilty and reliability.

As I said before. This thing should be able to literally crash into other ships and survive.

Ok people I am probably goign to start Gamma mission this time tomorrow. I have to update the crew lists with the lattest bios along with the ship write ups and the station we are using along with a more complee mission brief. Then I have to write up the start post, so it might be two days since there is quite a lot for me to do. Depends on how busy I am tomorrow.

Teaos wrote: Yeah your right the brief does say 7 mill (you'd think I would remember the stats of the ship I helped design... ), well we do have that extra space to play around with but as I said increasing the power increases the size of the fusion reactor. I pretty oped to making them more powerful as I always wanted this thing to be able to take a beating. BUt for the sake of the write up can we keep it at a nice round number like 9 or 10 million since that related to the fusion reactor size.

Well 10 million sounds good then, if you compare that to my other stats (particularly the Sovereign) it keeps in line with a ship designed to be the best and latest, compared to one refitted to attempt to be there.

I agree that the torpedoes would be quite a lot stronger after 20 years. I have no problem with that, I mearly stating I dont think there would be a next generation of burst fire tubes since rapid fire and pulse seem to have taken over. But I still think 13k is still pushing the upper limit of power increase. 10-11k seems more realistic with out the tube upgrade.

Rapid fire seems to have, yes, but not pulse fire - pulse fire actually is slightly behind the times, it seems to be in use on the Defiant just, presumably, because of its size. The pulse fire are far slower than the burst fire, and have greater reload times - all of this must be because of size constraints. 13k is pretty reasonable, IMO, when you compare it to the Sovereign and Akira. While the Akira is a torpedo boat, it still has far, far sub-standard launchers. How about, then, type 4s, then. It's a tested design, and while *ideally* I'd still have the overall ship more powerful (if its meant to be a battleship, you'd really expect rapid fires to be always there), I think type 4s are reasonable.

Okay, how about the new stats - better hull, worse torpedos, marginally different shields, less manoeuvrable.

Paladin Class

Type XIV phaser arrays, phaser lance, pulse phasers; total output 200,000 TeraWatts
2 x Rapid fire quantum torpedo tube
4 x Type 4 burst fire quantum torpedo tubes
1200 quantum rounds

Automodulated regenerative shield system, total capacity 10,000,000 TeraJoules
Heavy Reinforced Duranium/Tritanium Double hull plus 60 cm ablative armour
High Level Structural Integrity Field

Normal Cruise : 8.5
Maximum Cruise 9.93
Maximum Rated: 9.99 for 24 hours

Beam Firepower : 4,000
Torpedo Firepower : 11,900
Weapon Range and Accuracy : 4,200
Shield Strength : 3,704
Hull Armour : 10,150
Speed : 4,125
Combat Manoeuvrability : 1,400
Over all: 6,517

If you compare that to my previous Sovereign, Galaxy, and Daystrom, I think that's pretty much dead on. While I'd still ideally go for greater phaser and torpedo firepower (to bring it more in line with the Scimitar), I think the above is good enough for a final version.

Yeah I'll settle for that, there are a few things I'd tweak but then again its the same for you, so its a good compromise.

I still think the maneouvrability is a tad on the high side, but its a fair compromise.

Thorin wrote:

Teaos wrote:The problem with that though is we wont have much information on any ships we make up. Saying we have an Intrepid in the fleet is easy, everyone instantly knows everything about that ship. The only reason it was suggeted we bring the Paladin in to this was because it was so troughly designed and layed out. Unless someone puts some real work into designing some realistic ships, and by real work I dont mean some weapons numbers and a few paragraphs, then it will get really messy.

It is thoroughly designed, but as said, when you put in some modest upgrades to the Sovereign (essentially upgrades to all quantums), it's not a match. My stats I think are very reasonable for the Paladin, but it keeps in line with the design brief you have all set out, and fits in the right slot when compared to the Galaxy, Sovereign, Akira etc, as it would also do when compared to other fleets and their ships.

And making new ships isn't as complicated as you're making it - because you always start with a base (except for the Paladin, because the Feds had no battleship, or even as now, a real cruiser). So the Intrepid's replacement would have the same design brief as the Intrepid, but more advanced - as it's designed as a scout ship, though, the technologies that are most relevant would have the biggest 'buffs' (though of course, all the others would, too). So a higher speed, better manoeuvrability to enhance its role (taking into account our more militaristic/competant approach), but then standard upgrades, like quantum torpedos, type X phasers etc.

Personally, i think designing your own vessels is nowhere near as complicated as Teaos suggested, and you can make your own fairly easily.

Yeah in my mind I always thought of this as a hump back whale and the Daystrom as a Orca. But its slow enough to believable.