BETA SIM IC THREAD

[Mark]

WE CAN ONLY ACCEPT THE ONGOING SILENCE AS A FRANK REFUSAL.

IN RESPONSE TO THE FEDERATIONS STATEMENT, WE ARE QUITE SURE THAT YOUR SENSORS DETECTED MASSIVE EXPLOSIONS IN AN RURAL AREA ON A YRRIDIAN WORLD INDICATING THE DESTRUCTION ON A SCALE IN PROPORTION TO THE SELF DESTRUCTION OF A HIDDEN FACILITY. OUR ONGOING SCANS INDICATE THAT THIS WAS INDEED THE LOCATION OF A HIDDEN WEAPONS LOCATION. THE EXISTENCE OF THIS ONE CLEARLY INDICATES THAT THERE MAY BE OTHERS. BEFORE THE FEDERATION BEGINS ACCUISING THE EMPIRE OF PROPAGANDA, IT SHOULD NOTE THAT THOLIAN FORCES HAD NOT EVEN ARRIVED AT THE PLANET BEFORE SAID DESTRUCTION TOOK PLACE.

NOW, ONE OF THREE THINGS WILL HAPPEN.

ONE, THE YRRIDIAN PEOPLE TURN OVER THERE LEADERSHIP, AS WELL AS ALL SURVIVING MATERIALS REGARDING SAID WEAPONS AND DISCLOSE THEIR ALLIES IDENTITIES. IF THIS OCCURES, THOLIAN FORCES WILL WITHDRAW ALLOWING THE YRRIDIANS TO RECLAIM THEIR WORLDS WITH NOMINAL THOLIAN OVERSIGHT, OR SHOULD THE PEOPLE SO DESIRE, THEY WILL ALLOWED TO BECOME PART OF THE EMPIRE WITH FULL RIGHTS AND REPRESENTATION ON THE IMPERIAL ADVISORY COUNCIL.

TWO, IF THIS DOES NOT OCCUR THE JACORN WILL WITHDRAW FROM YRRIDIAN SPACE.

THREE, IF THE JACORN DO NOT, THEY WILL BE FORCEABLY EJECTED.

[Griffin]

What will become of the leadership of the Yrridians if they are turned over to you?

To the Yrridians; If the Tholians have been telling the truth, we advise you to agree to their terms, we can and will oversee the reclamation of your worlds, and can, if you wish, leave behind a defence fleet while you rebuild, or similar to the Tholian proposal, You can become part of the Jacorn Alliance, with all rights and representation of any Jacorn citizen.

[BigJKU316]

WE CAN ONLY ACCEPT THE ONGOING SILENCE AS A FRANK REFUSAL.

IN RESPONSE TO THE FEDERATIONS STATEMENT, WE ARE QUITE SURE THAT YOUR SENSORS DETECTED MASSIVE EXPLOSIONS IN AN RURAL AREA ON A YRRIDIAN WORLD INDICATING THE DESTRUCTION ON A SCALE IN PROPORTION TO THE SELF DESTRUCTION OF A HIDDEN FACILITY. OUR ONGOING SCANS INDICATE THAT THIS WAS INDEED THE LOCATION OF A HIDDEN WEAPONS LOCATION. THE EXISTENCE OF THIS ONE CLEARLY INDICATES THAT THERE MAY BE OTHERS. BEFORE THE FEDERATION BEGINS ACCUISING THE EMPIRE OF PROPAGANDA, IT SHOULD NOTE THAT THOLIAN FORCES HAD NOT EVEN ARRIVED AT THE PLANET BEFORE SAID DESTRUCTION TOOK PLACE.

NOW, ONE OF THREE THINGS WILL HAPPEN.

ONE, THE YRRIDIAN PEOPLE TURN OVER THERE LEADERSHIP, AS WELL AS ALL SURVIVING MATERIALS REGARDING SAID WEAPONS AND DISCLOSE THEIR ALLIES IDENTITIES. IF THIS OCCURES, THOLIAN FORCES WILL WITHDRAW ALLOWING THE YRRIDIANS TO RECLAIM THEIR WORLDS WITH NOMINAL THOLIAN OVERSIGHT, OR SHOULD THE PEOPLE SO DESIRE, THEY WILL ALLOWED TO BECOME PART OF THE EMPIRE WITH FULL RIGHTS AND REPRESENTATION ON THE IMPERIAL ADVISORY COUNCIL.

TWO, IF THIS DOES NOT OCCUR THE JACORN WILL WITHDRAW FROM YRRIDIAN SPACE.

THREE, IF THE JACORN DO NOT, THEY WILL BE FORCEABLY EJECTED.

If the Tholians would be so kind as to tell us all. What kind of weapons facility was it and what type of weapon was it producing?

[Mark]

THEY WILL BE INTERROGATED. IF THEY HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON UNDER THEIR NOSES THEY WILL BE RETURNED TO THEIR PEOPLE, ON THE CONDITION THEY NEVER SERVE IN A POSTION OF AUTHORITY AGAIN, AS THEY HAVE PROVEN THEY ARE INEPT.

IF THEY ARE GUILTY...EVERY LAST BIT OF INFORMATION WILL BE EXTRACTED FROM THEM, AND THEY WILL SPEND THE REST OF THEIR DAYS AS INDENTURED SERVANTS IN SERVICE TO THE EMPEROR.

IT WOULD BE WISE IF THEIR ALLIES SPOKE UP NOW. CONFESS NOW, WE WILL ACCEPT A REASON OF POOR JUDGEMENT AND WE WILL SEEK MATERIAL REPERATIONS ONLY. IF WE ARE FORCED TO EXTRACT IDENTIETIES FROM THE YRRIDIANS, A MILITARY RESPONSE WILL BE FORTHCOMING.

[Mark]

WE CAN DEFINATIVELY DETERMINE THAT THEY SEEM TO BE ANTIMATTER BASED WEAPONS WITH AN UNCOMMON ISOTOPE WE HAVE NEVER ENCOUNTERED BEFORE, FROM THE RESIDUAL SCANS.

INSOFAR AS WHAT SORT OF FACILITY IT WAS, AT THIS POINT ALL WE CAN DETERMINE IS THAT IT WAS HIDDEN FACILITY, CERTAINLY OPERATION WITH THEIR GOVERMENT KNOWLEDGE, BUT WE ARE UNABLE TO RECOVER DNA TO DETERMINE IF YRRIDIANS WERE WORKING THERE, OR THEIR ALLIES.

[BigJKU316]

WE CAN DEFINATIVELY DETERMINE THAT THEY SEEM TO BE ANTIMATTER BASED WEAPONS WITH AN UNCOMMON ISOTOPE WE HAVE NEVER ENCOUNTERED BEFORE, FROM THE RESIDUAL SCANS.

INSOFAR AS WHAT SORT OF FACILITY IT WAS, AT THIS POINT ALL WE CAN DETERMINE IS THAT IT WAS HIDDEN FACILITY, CERTAINLY OPERATION WITH THEIR GOVERMENT KNOWLEDGE, BUT WE ARE UNABLE TO RECOVER DNA TO DETERMINE IF YRRIDIANS WERE WORKING THERE, OR THEIR ALLIES.

An anti-matter weapon would not fall under the explicitly laid out classes of weapons in the Dorvan Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Weapons of Mass Destruction are defined as weapons that can destroy planets or stars in their entirety, who have the power to destroy all sapient life upon a planet, or can render subspace impassible. Weapons that will be covered in these treaty are, but are not limited to, directed radiation weapons such as tholaron radiation emitters, trilithium based weapons, subspace weapons, forced terraforming weapons (Genesis devices), biological weapons, and chemical weapons.

One might make an argument that such weapons would meet the definition of being able to destroy all sapient life upon a planet. However that does not hold up to a logical analysis of the facts here. If indeed the Yrridians were constructing an anti-matter weapon capable of ending all life on a planet then it would have ended all life on the planet it was on when it was destroyed as described. The act of self-destructing the facility would release all the anti-matter and the resulting explosion would render this discussion moot. As that is not the case this story appears to not hold much water.

As for the claim of "an uncommon isotope" of anti-matter we must say we are baffled. Unless the Tholians have obtained an understanding of anti-matter that has escaped the rest of the known universe. It is not relevant what form or isotope of anti-matter one is dealing with, it will have the same properties. Namely it will annihilate itself and an equal amount of matter on contact.

If we were to accept the Tholian claim that the simple possession of anti-matter consituted a weapon of mass destruction then are we not all at risk? The Federation has far more anti-matter than the Yrridians do, as do I suspsect most major powers in the region. There is a reason anti-matter weapons were not included in the Dorvan NPT. Even setting aside the questionable "science" behind the Tholian claim the international community can't lightly endorse the Tholians making such demands on another power with no more evidence than saying they were in possession of anti-matter. It would open all space-faring species to potential invasion for their possession of like weapons of mass destruction.

Thus far in support of their claim we count the following from the Tholians.

1. Zero evidentiary support of actual WMD manufacturing.
2. Tholian claims of an illogical plan to use such WMD against a Tholian colony by the Yrridians, which would only have ensured the subsequent destruction fo the Yrridians by the Tholians. Again we submit that a far more logical plan would have had the Yrridians targeting Tholia and Gorn, hoping to cripple the Tholian Empire. What is claimed by the Tholians makes no sense.
3. Tholian claims that the Jacorn used a WMD against them, when they did nothing of the sort.
4. Unfounded claims of a Yrridian ally, who presumably might be arming them with WMD to engage in this highly illogical strike outlined in point 2.

Again, we apologize for being difficult, but this case is very unconvincing and potentialy destabilizing for the whole region. Think of the chaos that would ensue if the international community were to sanction military action at the mere detection of large quantities of anti-matter being in possession of a nearby power.

[Mark]

AT OUR LAST GLANCE WE DID NOT SEE THE YRRIDIANS SIGN ANY SUCH TREATY. AS WE STATED, WE ARE WORKING WITH AFTER ACTION SENSOR READINGS TO COMPILE A CLEAR PICTURE OF THE WEAPON TYPE. THIS IS MUCH AKIN TO DISCOVERING HOW A MEAL TASTED TO A THIRD PARTY BY ANALYZING ITS FECES. AS WE HAVE STATED WE DETECTED AN ANTI MATTER BASED RESIDUE WITH AN ISOTOPE WE HAVE NEVER SEEN.

WE HAVE BEEN QUITE PATIENT WITH YOUR INQURIES, BUT WE FAIL TO SEE HOW A CONFLICT BETWEEN TWO POWERS THAT HAVE NO DIPLOMATIC TIES TO ANY POWER OUTSIDE SAID CONFLICT CAN DESTABILIZE A REGION.

WE STILL AWAIT A RESPONSE FROM THE YRRIDIANS, BUT WILL NOT WAIT MUCH LONGER.

[stitch626]

If we may interject...

Perhaps, if it does come to an interrogation of the Yrridian government members, it would be most effective for the interrogation to be performed by a third party with no direct interest in the matter, and observed by both Tholian and Federation officials.

This would prevent, or at the least limit, falsification of interrogation information.

Just a friendly suggestion.

[BigJKU316]

If we may interject...

Perhaps, if it does come to an interrogation of the Yrridian government members, it would be most effective for the interrogation to be performed by a third party with no direct interest in the matter, and observed by both Tholian and Federation officials.

This would prevent, or at the least limit, falsification of interrogation information.

Just a friendly suggestion.

We have zero interest in being involved in any interrogation.

Our only concern, aside from the massive casualties to civilians and ongoing war of course, is that such an expansive definition of weapons of mass destruction could be massively de-stabilizing. What if tomorrow the Klingons claim the need to overrun Tholian space due to an anti-matter based weapon being in possession of the Tholians? At what point does this sort of reasoning stop?

[Mark]

AT A FUTURE POINT WE WOULD BE WILLING TO DISCUSS A FORMAL INTERGALACTIC TREATY GOVERNING SUCH SITUATIONS. IN THE MEANTIME, IT IS A VERY SIMPLE MATTER TO RESOLVE.

THERE NEED BE NO FURTHER LOSS OF LIFE. EITHER THE YRRIDIAN GOVERNMENT SURRENDER TO US AND NAME THEIR ACCOMPLICES, OR THE WORLD MUST UNCONDITIONALLY SURRENDER. A SINGLE TORPEDO NEED NEVER EVEN BE FIRED.

[Reliant121]

This has gone on long enough. You make claims that are so far completely unsubstantiated and verging on the ridiculous. An Antimatter weapons testing facility was destroyed? And, is it not in fact possible that a stack of torpedoes at this facility were detonated by accident? It is far more likely that a powerplant at the facility, a torpedo storage for a self defence system, even just a power relay from another power facility elsewhere exploded at the site. If this so called anti-matter WMD had exploded, would it have not caused far more destruction than one measly facility being destroyed?

The Empire cannot believe in far fetched stories spun by our crystalline friends. The council would far rather believe the Tholians are simply trying to provide a flimsy excuse to the international community to cover an invasion of a weaker border empire. It's simply territory. You simply don't have the gut to admit it, and have to pander to your own self conscience by finding an excuse. If you can come up with some hard evidence of a world-destroying antimatter weapon, and not simply pointing at a figurative raindrop and calling it a bomb, then we will be far more inclined to believe your claims.

[Mark]

THEN PERHAPS SOMEBODY ELSE CAN EXPLAIN WHAT SORT OF FACILITY WOULD BE CONCEALED IN A RURAL AREA AND RIGGED TO SELF DESTRUCT AS THE THOLIAN FLEET APPROACHED? THE ONGOING POINT IS THAT WE DO NOT OWE AN EXPLANATION TO ANYBODY. THERE ARE NO STANDING DEFENSE OR DISCLOSURE TREATIES BETWEEN THE YRRIDIANS OR THE EMPIRE THAT WARRANTS EXPLANATIONS AT ALL.

THE THOLIAN EMPIRE HAS ALL THE PROOF THAT IT NEEDS AND IS CALLING ONE FINAL TIME FOR EITHER THE SURRENDER OF YRRIDIA OR THE SURRENDER OF THEIR LEADERSHIP AND A CONFESSION OF THE IDENTITIES OF THEIR ACCOMPLICES.

[BigJKU316]

THEN PERHAPS SOMEBODY ELSE CAN EXPLAIN WHAT SORT OF FACILITY WOULD BE CONCEALED IN A RURAL AREA AND RIGGED TO SELF DESTRUCT AS THE THOLIAN FLEET APPROACHED? THE ONGOING POINT IS THAT WE DO NOT OWE AN EXPLANATION TO ANYBODY. THERE ARE NO STANDING DEFENSE OR DISCLOSURE TREATIES BETWEEN THE YRRIDIANS OR THE EMPIRE THAT WARRANTS EXPLANATIONS AT ALL.

THE THOLIAN EMPIRE HAS ALL THE PROOF THAT IT NEEDS AND IS CALLING ONE FINAL TIME FOR EITHER THE SURRENDER OF YRRIDIA OR THE SURRENDER OF THEIR LEADERSHIP AND A CONFESSION OF THE IDENTITIES OF THEIR ACCOMPLICES.

We feel forced to ask again, what proof do you have that the Yrridians had accomplices (setting aside the fact you have not proven them guilty of anything)?

Who possibly has anything to gain from instability in the Tholian Empire?

Even setting aside all the dubious technical details and the total lack of physical proof... even ignoring the fact that a government might destroy all manner of facilities in the face of an onrushing attack it cannot stop (such as say an anti-matter refinary and storage center)... moving beyond the basic issue of if an anti-matter based weapon can even really be construed as a WMD... we are still baffled by the illogic of the proposed plan.

The Yrridians were going to launch a strike on a Tholian colony...which would accomplish what other than ensuring their destruction?

Assuming there is some sort of accomplice in all of this what did they hope to accomplish? That might help us determine who this accomplice might be. At present we can see no motive that makes any sense.

[BigJKU316]

The Federation wishes to provide other powers notice that as of this year the Sisko Class (ex-Defiant) has been stricken from the active ranks of Starfleet service. While we still retain many in mothballed condition for emergency use none are presently active in our service. A number have been transfered to our allies where they serve in the appropriate national livery and have been re-classified.

[Mark]

YOU ARE ASKING US TO SPECULATE ON THE STATE OF MIND OF AN ALIEN SPECIES. WE HAVE SHARED THE FACTS WE HAVE UNCOVERED WITH YOU ALREADY.