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Mikey wrote:... he's taking the piss.

THAT was the expression I was looking for. And yes, probably, but I want to make sure.

For once, no. If the statement had been that he liked season 3-4 Enterprise, or if he'd clarified that it was utter shit but a guilty pleasure, fair enough. However the blanket statement, on top of his track record of throwing tantrums at the idea of a lot of major characters dying in a book about a big fucking war that their side was loosing badly, displays a monumental lack of taste in fiction.

Well, that'll teach me to try and divine someone's intentions. To be fair, Striker AFAIK never tried to be an apologist for ENT's failings - he just said that he liked it, which is absolutely fair in my book even if I disagree. Hell, I could say the same to you (Seafort) for never having been a proponent of Melville, Conrad, or Burroughs.

Striker has previously stated his likes and reasons for liking ENT, and just because someone dislikes something you happen to like for reasons you dislike doesn't give them bad taste, it gives them different taste. I for one happen to enjoy VOY and ENT, for the most part, mostly because I like watching the stupid failings, but every once in a while one comes along that is actually enjoyable.
So yes, I enjoy watching both of them, my sister has VOY on DVD, and occasionally I'll watch some episodes, some random ones albeit, but still, I enjoy it, and I don't get mush joy from reading fiction. Does that mean I have bad taste in everything.

One of the reasons that people are so vocal about Enterprise is that we're Trek fans. We want good Trek. We want to be eager to tune in and watch it. We want to discuss it. We're interested any loyal. So when something as fucking awful as Enterprise is put out we're going to bitch and moan about it. We're not going to just shrug and let it go. Especially if it's managed to set back Trek the way it has. Between Enterprise and Nemesis traditional Trek has been killed off on TV and in the movies. It's highly likely, bordering on an almost certainty now, that we're not going to go back to the traditional Trek universe ever. While I like the new Trek movie and am eager for more Enterprise is one of a two part duo that made the JJ reinterpretation of it necessary to keep it out of the grave.

So yeah, I'm going to dump on it. It quantifiably sucks in a huge way and it helped kill the Prime timeline. It gets no sympathy from me.

Thats my grievance. It has no consistency with other trek.

The positives are some rather good SFX that make things going boom quite pretty to watch.

I think seafort was just in a crying mood... we've all been there. Don't worry about it Striker.

Well, hmm. I suppose my disposition is quite unorthodox compared to many diehard Star Trek fans. I try not to scrutinize every inconsistency or contradiction to the point of mathamatics. Instead, with my "abundant" imagination, I create in my mind whatever plausible tie-ins are necessary for things to make sense. Alas, due to your negative focus on ENT, you seem to have overlooked one inconsistency created by the Star Trek Motion Picture (and movies) and TNG. This example is referring to how ENT cleverly tied together the appearance of the TOS Klingons with the latter more cultivated Klingons. I thought that was bloody brilliant. There was plenty more that ENT did good to add to ST lore, but that one I found to be the most intriguing.

And on another note, for all those whining about how they stole the Akira-class design for the NX-class, I say GOOD! The Akira-class is an awesome design and the NX-class, though similar in appearance, does have enough differences to not make it a complete rip-off. With my "abundant" imagination, I forego the fact that the NX Enterprise model was closely based off the Akira Thunderchild model because that fact is irrelevant. I'd rather like to think that the Akira-class is the decendant of the NX-class but with many marked improvements. Like how it's over double the size of the NX-class, has nearly triple the crew, has a flight deck fore/aft connected and can deploy tactical fighter craft, etc.

Perhaps I'm just a big optimist. Plus being a big enough Star Trek fan, I suppose I just manage to find a way to make everything in the shows seem great. Despite any flaws, I love them all nonetheless. But as such, I really enjoyed the cast and stories of ENT overall. I guess that puts me in a minority, which is too bad. If ENT had more support, there'd still be an ST show to this day...

Demon971 wrote:Instead, with my "abundant" imagination, I create in my mind whatever plausible tie-ins are necessary for things to make sense.

I think everyone is capable of that. As I wrote on this forum lo, these many years ago: it's eminently possible to create reasonings for the disconnectedness or contradiction of ENT with previously-established canon, or for things like the design of the Akiraprise. The point, though, is that the show shouldn't force the viewer to do so. Having to do mental excercise like that takes away from the show, especially when it stems from apparent lack of concern on the part of the producers or even outright disregard for the franchise or the audience.

Demon971 wrote: This example is referring to how ENT cleverly tied together the appearance of the TOS Klingons with the latter more cultivated Klingons. I thought that was bloody brilliant.

Agreed, I thought that the ENT solution to the KFP was about as good as could have been. I don't think that mitigates, or even affects in the least, the other instances of ENT trampling canon.

Demon971 wrote:the NX-class, though similar in appearance, does have enough differences to not make it a complete rip-off.

I don't think anyone said that the NX is a direct copy of the Akira. Rather, the problem many of us have with the NX is that the design aesthetic is out of place in the previously-established way of things in the 'Trek universe.

Demon971 wrote:I'd rather like to think that the Akira-class is the decendant of the NX-class but with many marked improvements.

There's the problem. The next couple of centuries showed Earth/UFP ships of the familiar saucer/secondary configuration, and the NX/Akira style wasn't seen again until the late 24th century.

Demon971 wrote:Like how it's over double the size of the NX-class, has nearly triple the crew,

Irrelevant. As I said, the issue isn't lack of modernization of the Akira over the NX; rather, it's the disconnectedness of the design.

Demon971 wrote:has a flight deck fore/aft connected and can deploy tactical fighter craft, etc.

The hell you say. I've heard this vicious rumor as well, but there is as much evidence for this as for the Akira having replaced it's M/Am reactor in order to run on gumdrops and happy thoughts.

Demon971 wrote:If ENT had Manny Coto from the beginning,, there'd still be an ST show to this day...

Fixed.

Mikey wrote:

Demon971 wrote:If ENT had Manny Coto from the beginning,, there'd still be an ST show to this day...

Fixed.

Agreed. I have a funny feeling the last season of 24 was as awesome as it was because he was brought in as a showrunner and writer.

Demon971 wrote:Well, hmm. I suppose my disposition is quite unorthodox compared to many diehard Star Trek fans. I try not to scrutinize every inconsistency or contradiction to the point of mathamatics. Instead, with my "abundant" imagination, I create in my mind whatever plausible tie-ins are necessary for things to make sense.

Which utterly discounts what many of us "unimaginative" mathematics types do. Specifically point out what doesn't work, why it doesn't work, and then... well shit I guess we can't really be imaginative so...dully put forth original explanations as to ways it might be able to be made to work.

Alas, due to your negative focus on ENT, you seem to have overlooked one inconsistency created by the Star Trek Motion Picture (and movies) and TNG. This example is referring to how ENT cleverly tied together the appearance of the TOS Klingons with the latter more cultivated Klingons. I thought that was bloody brilliant.

You've got one good point which does nothing to excuse the show as a whole, at least not the first two and a half seasons of it. We're talking about 80 hours of TV here, you need more than a single good point to validate that.

There was plenty more that ENT did good to add to ST lore, but that one I found to be the most intriguing.

Well then please note it.

And on another note, for all those whining about how they stole the Akira-class design for the NX-class, I say GOOD! The Akira-class is an awesome design and the NX-class, though similar in appearance, does have enough differences to not make it a complete rip-off.

All of which completely ignores that the there has been a very consistent, well done evolution of ship designs from the NCC-1701 right on up to the -1701E. Even the other ships in the back ground like the Excelsiors, Mirandas, Intrepids, Centaurs, and most others all conform to that design evolution and their places within it are easy to identify.

Then you have the NX, which takes all that work supported by several hundred episodes of TV and almost a dozen movies and pisses it away so that the ship can look like the newest cool ship around. That's just asinine and lazy.

With my "abundant" imagination,

Keep putting quotes around it, I know I would.

I forego the fact that the NX Enterprise model was closely based off the Akira Thunderchild model because that fact is irrelevant.

Given that the discussion about the NX's form is as much OOU as it is IU I would disagree that it's irrelevant. That the producers of the show were lazy useless hacks is well established as is their desire to use the Akira's form because it was "cool."

I'd rather like to think that the Akira-class is the decendant of the NX-class but with many marked improvements. Like how it's over double the size of the NX-class, has nearly triple the crew, has a flight deck fore/aft connected and can deploy tactical fighter craft, etc.

Using the NX as the basis of design for the Akira would be not unlike using the design of the HMS Victory as a basis for designing a new modern warship.

Plus being a big enough Star Trek fan, I suppose I just manage to find a way to make everything in the shows seem great.

First off, cute way to imply the rest of us aren't real Trek fans. Secondly, I'd rather the shows be great all on their own rather than having to invent reasons in my head why the shit on the plate in front of me doesn't stink.

If ENT had more support, there'd still be an ST show to this day...

The phrase you're looking for is, "If ENT hadn't sucked and intentionally alienated the fanbase there'd still be a ST show to this day."

Wow, what a load of sarcastic bollocks. Instead of picking apart my post and telling me how I should've written it (not to mention adding your implications to my words), how about actually giving me a valid reason why Enterprise is so horrible? I at least gave an example to what made Enterprise good and that it deserves more credit than it gets. I can give more examples, as there are plenty, like how Enterprise involved a long-time known species (the Andorians) that had otherwise been a seen-but-obscure species until ENT gave them a face. I believe they did a good job at it, the blue skins were interesting and less as comical as I had once thought.

As to the Akira vs NX, and to how the similarity conflicts with the "starship evolution", I disagree. The starship evolution is complete conjecture. We've never seen every single ship from our lowly orbital shuttle to the 25th century Prometheus. We've only seen fragments from here and there in between. Who's to say that a ship design couldn't have looked that way in the mid 22nd century? Perhaps it was just ahead of it's time, hence why we hadn't seen a similar design until the late 23rd century. Like many things invented nowadays that're ahead of their time and do not become mainstream. For example, the Heckler & Koch G11 is vastly superior in design to post-contemporary firearm designs these days. Caseless ammunition, incredibly low recoil, high rate of fire, can carry more ammunition, etc. However for logistical and political reasons, it never became the next step in the recent evolution of firearms. Some were made and it did get some use in the field, but never became standard issue with Germany or any other armed forces. Same goes for the Canadian Avro CF-105 Arrow which was well ahead of it's time but due to political pressure from morons, it's production got cancelled.

Anyway, from what I read about the NX-class, it was eventually phased out for the Daedalus-class (when all it's issues were sorted out and warp 5 engines were put in). The NX-class was too resource demanding compared to the Daedalus. That's why it took over as the standard starship design. Then future designs followed suit with the Daedalus two-hull design, until a century later with the Miranda-class (which is one of the next closest cousin to the NX design). There, that seems like a decent enough explanation for that.

Enterprise was the most realistic and believable show out of the lot. That doesn't mean the other shows weren't any good, just means (to me) that it had more grounds in reality. For that reason I connected better with Enterprise than I did with the other series. Plus I thought scripts were decent and the actors were great. My favourite Star Trek cast by far. They all worked together really well. All of this, I'm sure, you completely disagree. That's fine, because that's your choice and your preference, but as such those are my opinions. I've given some facts and points to what made Enterprise good. How about you give me similarily valid ones why Enterprise is so bad to you? I don't understand why so many of you hate Enterprise with such blind passion. Some anti-ENT trekkers who I've debated with really couldn't come up with reasonable enough explanations to why Enterprise is so horrible (to them). All they kept doing is practically quoting the same inane bullshit (about the NX-Akira, the time travel over doing, etc). Most their points were same as each other, just worded slightly differently, so I surmised that they were just going with the flow like good little sheep. Perhaps you aren't one of them and could actually give me some real insight into your hatred of Enterprise, reasons that aren't abstract or production-based irrelevancy. Also bias towards actors/directors is more of personal preference than generality, and as such isn't reflective of the entire show because other people may actually like those actors/directors. For example, I'm not a fan of the actress that plays Janeway or the character itself, but in general ST:VOY is a brilliant show with a story premise with much adventurous potential. So give me something, that way I can credit your logic whether I continue to like ENT or not I'll at least understand why you and all the others hold such an adamantly negative view of ENT.

Or, how about you pick apart and paraphrase each sentence in this post to twist the meaning and then criticize them in the most vague and sarcastic way possible, again. You and Mikey can team up on me. That way you don't need to put down any concrete reasoning behind your hatred toward ENT.

Then I'll just move on from here, continuing to believe that all the anti-ENT Star Trek fans are really just scared of change and because Enterprise was quite different from the usual Star Trek sandbox, they couldn't accept that and instead chose to hate it irregardless of it's merits. The good things don't matter, when it's so much easier to focus on the bad no matter how inconsequential. That way there's more to fuel the hatred, and it'll proliferate to the point that you'll never have to worry about explaining the hatred because it'll just become unanimous, like a social cancer. Good stuff.

Fire away, troops.

Reasons Enterprise is bad:

1) B&B have been quoted stating that they didn't care much about the show (that alone should have killed it)
2) Polarized hull plating: shouldn't work the way it was depicted (seriously, hull plating at X% )
3) Transporters: other than Hoshi (who was psycho about it) everyone was fine with transporters after the first ep. It should not have been done that way, because even in the 23^rd they were untrusted by many
4) Akiraprise: the problem is the ridiculous similarities to the Akira (duel impulse, catamaran style hull, indented front saucer, pod in between nacelles). Its improbable that two ships of the same century would have so many similarities let alone ships separated by more than 200 years
5) Prime Directive: every time they had a chance to show what it was like without the prime directive, they "followed" it anyway
6) Klingons homeworld only a few days away from Earth at warp 5 (should be a week or more)
7) Nav deflector: a mix between TOS and TNG style? rediculous

There are many more, but I'll let others get to them.

Now, reasons Enterprise was decent:
1) old torps, for a while, were nice to see
2) old plasma cannons we cool, for a few episodes
3) very nice uniforms
4) I personally liked the shuttlepods, as they did not have warp ability
5) Enterprise was on its own, and had to be careful against more powerful enemies (well, till they got phasers phase cannons)
6) During Xindi season, the Enterprise never once magically repaired itself (like Voyager) and by the end was a mess
7) Seeing Andorians was nice, and Tellarites too

However, you'll notice that many of these good points were taken away quickly, which means halfway through the first season, it lost good parts.

I didn't hate Enterprise, but I didn't like it as much as the others for 2 reasons:
1). B&B didn't stick to canon. For one thing, why would the NX-01 crew use small arms "phase weapons" such as the phase pistol and phase rifle, and then 150 years later, the NCC-1701 crew use lasers, an inferior weapon compared to what was around 150 years ago? It doesn't make sense. I fail to see a weapon made 150 years ahead of its time. Twenty or thirty, maybe fifty, but not 150, tha'ts just not believable.
2). Another thing, and this is more an observation than a complaint, but there is more suggestive content in ENT than in the other series: the coed decon chamber (Here, smear this goo on each other while you're in your undies and I'll watch through this portal) and the Denobulan orgies--I mean marital arrangements (I have 5 wives and they each have 4 husbands, and I'm my own grandpa!) are just a couple of examples to get ratings the lazy way rather than develop a plot that actually thickens, keeps you guessing and wanting to watch more to see how the plot develops. No, they just throw in some T&A with some quantum whatever and mix together with the watery thin plot they developed at 4:20 (am or pm, it doesn't matter if you know what it is).

So those are just a few of what I consider to be valid reasons for why I didn't enjoy Enterprise as much as the others.

For the record, I actually thought the Denobulan marriage deal was really cool.

Go figure.