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Monroe wrote:Proving EA knew the location of worlds:

B5 Wiki wrote: oping that they could prove to the Minbari they were a power not to be trifled with, Earth launched a strike against a Minbari mid-range military base. Earth's intentions were to strike with a fleet of forty starships and destroy the Minbari base, thus proving to the Minbari that they were powerful, and force the Minbari to the bargaining table.

I fixed this problem:

B5 Wiki wrote: While Earth ships had enough firepower to cripple or destroy Minbari vessels, the Minbari warcruisers were equipped with highly advanced stealth systems which prevented Earthforce warships from achieving target lock

So as you can see while knowledge of their space is not known at the beginning of the war it could be learned quickly if the EA played their cards right. And my targeting solution alone would increase the 1-5 kill-loss ratio the EA ships had more than any vague 'bolster the defenses' strategy.

I'm going to use the same sourse you did: this is the result of the stike on that Earth tried to prove to the minbari they were a power not to be trifled with:

B5 Wiki wrote:The Earth fleet entered the Minbari star system of ShLekkTha (Vega) and slowly entered weapon range of a waiting Minbari fleet. The Minbari fleet consisted of only twelve War-Cruisers, to the Earth Alliance's forty starships, which consisted of Heavy Cruisers and Dreadnoughts. Despite being well within range of the Minbari's weapons, the Minbari ShLekkTha fleet allowed the Earth vessels to close into range and fire the first shot. The battle lasted only twelve seconds. In these twelve seconds the Minbari destroyed every one of the attacking Earth vessels, allowing only one fighter to survive, so it could return home to tell its people of their impending doom.

Furthermore

B5 Wiki wrote:While Earth ships had enough firepower to cripple or destroy Minbari vessels, the Minbari warcruisers were equipped with highly advanced stealth systems which prevented Earthforce warships from achieving target lock.[3] The Minbari, on the other hand, had no such problems, and had weapons capable of destroying their enemies in single hits. In addition, their ships had considerably greater maneuverability and acceleration. Furthermore, Minbari sensor systems were capable of overloading the shielding on Earthforce power systems, rendering their jump drives inoperable - thus eliminating the possibility of escape.

Not sure if a third person is going to post so I'll go ahead:

Reliant121 wrote: Munroe, the point of this thread is to see if a stalemate is possible. Your plan produces a minimal chance of winning a war, but there is no way that the generals of the EF will use it. it's simply to expensive in general to be viable, with such a small window of success. The EF, the Centauri, the Narn all the other races, know Nothing of the Minbari at this point. The Centauri who know the most, know only the border. How can you fight a war agaisnt an enemy you dont know the location of? Space is vast, you cant simply depth charge the entirety of it. It would be like firing depth charges into the sea from the start of a naval war. The chance your going to hit something is infitesimally small.

Yeah you might be right. While is does grant a chance of victory it might not be cost effective. I guess we'd have to see how much jump drives, engines, and a launch platform costs. I'll back off from the drone plan, though I still think it would be a good way to deliver multiple payloads to a technologically advanced planet as I'll explain further down.

Risk wise you're probably right its just not a good enough pay off.

Deepcrush wrote:OMG, I've seen whores on the street

I'm sure you have.

Well, if you need to beg for help yet again... call them in here.

As I recall I only asked them to have you watch your mouth. It was several pages later that you began complaining in that thread and others as more and more people called you crazy that they locked it. And they only locked it after you gave them the okay to do so. I never gave them the okay (not that they needed it). So because I asked mods to make you stay on subject it suddenly means I went crawling to them. Whereas when you posted in multiple threads about the uselessness of debating and asking for a lock you're not crawling for them? And then when I called you out on that last time you said I lied even though I could quote the entire post you made and provide a link to it?

Have them say in the open where and why I'm wrong.

I'm not going to mention the mod who told me in confidence how all the other mods thought I tore apart your message. If they would like to jump in here, or another mod, then they can feel free to but I'm not going to call them by name publicly.

I'm sure you have plenty of little excuses of spins on how things are going. I'm sure you've tried to pretend that by not answering or flat out ignoring statements made by me makes them go away.

Well I did try putting you on ignore you and it only made you jump around like a little child waving your hands. Ever since then I have never intentionally ignored anything you've said. What occured last time was you constantly saying I was wrong for no reason. Ignoring the evidence I posted. And never posting any evidence yourself. If I don't quote every thing you say then that is probably because I already addressed it and you're just repeating yourself or you're acting like such a tool then it doesn't need me to step in. But if you disagree with me that you want to be publically humilated more by your idiocy then repeat something you said that I skipped over and I'll address it.

Wrong again. My plan, as stated several times over, not that you'd ever bother to read before you speak. Is to fight a defensive campaign against the Minbari. Had this have happened, the outer colonies would have been left alone. The inner colonies would have been covered in Sol, and the Religious and Worker Castes would have succeeded in starting up peace talks without outside interference. Had the peace talk been run inside of Minbari or Sol space then the Centauri attack never would have happened. The Warrior caste would have been isolated and then, when the next cycle came around (I think its every 1.2 earth years, no promises) then the other two thirds of the Grey Council could have voted to end the war. Earth would admit defeat, the Warrior caste would claim a victory, and everyone walks away ALIVE. That being the most important part.

Okay so at the beginning of the war the EA knew that if they could just last a little bit longer the two castes of an alien species they never had contact with would vote against the war allowing the EA to surrender (which would mean a failure for the OP question) I think I got a fair grasp at your plan. And I do like the idea of reinforcing defenses. I have nothing against your basic approach. I just think it needs an offensive capability.

Anyone here who has served in the armed forces will tell you there are many books used in the instruction of war. All of which are based on how to... drum roll please.... how to kill the enemy in the most effective way possible. Sun Tzu's primary point of war is "Defeat the enemies will, not their army". This is the guy who truly wrote a Rule Book of War... And guess what... Its not pretend or make believe! What a wonder about that.

To paraphrase someone in the news recently having a conversation with you is like arguing with the dinning table. There are many books of war yeah... that's why there's no one book on war that everyone agrees on. And besides, I love how you make the stab by saying I wasn't ever in the military when pointing to week four of basic when anyone who went to basic knows that that was rifle safety. Once again if you're going to attack my military record, which apparently has such a impact on this topic, stop looking like a complete idiot when you do so.

Oh, I do listen, and I even played it for a while. I know what it is, I know what its about or the basics at least. But I'm not familiar with the gaming aspects of it. She's also my Ex g/f now. Was this really the best insult you could throw? A "you don't listen" joke?

No, that was an honest apology. Stop being so defensive. I made an honest mistake and apologized.

Wrong. Its not OOU knowledge. They knew there were peace talks going on because they were there. They knew that many in the Minbari command wanted the war to end because the Minbari told them so. The EF knows the effect of mines on the Minbari ships. They know they can't beat the Minbari in a stand up fight. So, don't go out looking for the enemy. Make them come to you. Try to think of the point of a Defensive War. Its to drain your enemy, not to defeat them in battle, but to make them feel that the forced victory isn't worth the cost when the other side is willing to bow down and say "You win" without anymore cost.

I mentioned this above. I didn't know that the EA was familiar with the politics of the new alien on the block which just opened fire on them.

Normally I just hit people as stupid as you. Since that hasn't happened and I haven't offered too...

Hey if you're ever in town let me know.

You don't see them making it home with the very information that your whole plan rides on as important??? And yet you wonder why you're a joke to me.

Not when they are drones...
And you wonder why you're an idiot to everyone.

A, prove [we have drones]. B, prove that those drones can run a ship. C, prove that those drones can engage the Minbari since they don't have eyes.

A)
http://smart-machines.blogspot.com/2008 ... rfare.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous ... per_System
- And all you have to do is look at a modern game or simulator to see how computer programs can fly themselves.



B) Because of the basic components that will be needed for this ship. You only really need a navigational computer, a launching system, and a detonation system.

AI in B5?
http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Sparky_the_Computer - Check.

Okay so they can make a grouchy AI, doesn't mean they can have it pilot a ship. That's something that was forgotten in the early 21st century you say.

http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Special: ... pilot&go=1
Three examples of ships returning on autopilot, 2 of them EA.

But still. No way on Earth, you say, that a drone ship could deploy swarms of suicide craft quickly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_i ... ry_vehicle

Basically the big drone ship arrives and deploys. Thousands of smaller atomic sized atomic weapons would strike the planet. Because of the Minbari capital ship lack of coverage and no AoE many would make it through. Simple law of numbers.

While I think this plan would work perfectly on known targets Reliant is right, it might not be cost effective enough to try in the Minbari war. So I'll back off from it. Though I do think it would be a great way to win wars against a known enemy.

You didn't solve anything. You pointed something out that has already been shown to be worthless by those very people you say PM you how much they support you.

I'll get to the targeting thing further on down. But since when is Lazar a moderator? If you're going to jump on every minor victory at least do so in a way that makes an ounce of sense.

Then prove that the EA in the E-M War has the ability to find it. Then prove they have the ability to hit it. Then show why the Minbari wouldn't just bypass the EF lines and glass Earth in response. Good luck.

1) Proving the EA in the E-M War can find Minbari space. Well this little tidbit is the most troubling as I've been saying from the beginning. -- Which is why I have changed my mind. But we do know where their midway bases and some of their planets are as my previous post said. You nuke those to death and they're not going to get supplies in. So playing a defensive war is even better. And if you destroy logistical HQs you aren't pissing off the other two castes. Finding the population centers I can't prove the EA could do it just like you can't prove they can't. There's too much unknown. But we do know the EA can find some Minbari controlled worlds.

2) Proving the EA has the ability to hit a planet. Well.. we know they have autopilot. We know they have AI. We know today we have missiles that can break up into separate missiles. If you have basically a missile the size as a capital ship that breaks into missiles the size of a torpedo. How many missiles do you think will be coming in towards a Minbari world? Few hundred? Maybe a thousand? Maybe more? There's no way the majority of those missiles would be intercepted. The Minbari capital ships are great aimers true. But they would have to do some serious fast and accurate shooting to catch every one of a five thousand missile payload coming in towards their planet and it would only take a few to devastate their urban areas.

3) The Minbari have no creativity in warfare and play strictly by the book. http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Blackstar They didn't go after Earth originally when they very well could. They have not had a war in a very long time either. They would do what they have been doing since the warrior caste was already set lose and had a holy war declared. Their tactics would not change if their worlds started to burn.

The Minbari are very honorable and by the book when it comes to warfare and that is a weakness I think.

Wrong, this means like everyone else they know where the border is. Read your own statement.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one. A world doesn't live with the Minbari and count on their support without knowing where their systems are. Even if not the capital world they would know where their nearest military bases or trade posts are.

Regarding the targeting problem. No, you didn't fix anything. In fact the very people you claim always support you were the ones who shot this idea down before I even had a chance to speak on it. You've yet again failed to prove anything.

Okay just to get this out in the open since you seem too retarded to understand. People with green names are moderators.

Now for the targeting solution. A ship does not have to block out a star in order for the solution to pick them up. Just like a exo-planet does not have to block out a star for us to pick it up. All that is needed is a drop in light coming from said star. But Monroe, you say, stars aren't in every part of the background. This is true but its not your backyard we're talking about. There are many many stars in space and from a fleet's perspective there will be a star behind a Minbari warship in almost every concievable angle. If there isn't a star behind Minbari ship 1 from EA Ship A's perspective then there probably is one from EA ship B or C or D or E or F perspective. Its not perfect no but it should vastly diminish the usefulness of the stealth technology and bring things down to a little more even.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of ... sit_method

You had one kid who knew nothing about the subject supporting you (another person who knew nothing on the subject) and somehow you think that is going to matter to me? You could have ten, twenty or fifty people supporting. I don't care since none of them knew anything about the subject at hand. When it comes to fighting, I trust people who have been involved in it. I have not in the past nor ever in the future have any care of what a bunch of uneducated civis have to say about how combat works. Oh, by the way, on that last argument, you didn't win, you ran away, then you begged some of the mods to make me stop. Don't feel bad, they didn't ignore you, they asked me to or at least asked me to be nicer about it. I laughed at it because you got raped so badly that you had to beg for mercy. Now, you can try to spin this as much as you want. Until you act with honesty I'm going to keep kicking your ass over every topic I catch you bullshitting in.

I recommend you reread (Or find someone to read to you) the thread. Things started out slightly in your favor. I wasn't trying to disprove your method from working. I was defending mine. By the end of the debate you were the only one who thought my plan had no chance of success. While some people perfected yours, all agreed mine would probably work.



So in short yeah I'll back off from the drone carrier plan though I do think it would work with known planet locations. And my targeting solution would even things considerably.

Hey if you're ever in town let me know.

Monroe wrote:Oops missed Lighthawk

Oh, my bad, forgot to turn off my stealth system

That's a good point. Hmm I guess knowledge from other races is the only way. Then have massive drone ships that open up into a swarm of little ones. Kind of like how many tactical missiles work. But only... IN SPACE.

Knowledge that other races proved very reluctant to give out. As for the drone ships...I'll get to that.

True all around. But the technology is there.

Granted

Hey if we can devote resources to turning bats into bombs during WWII we can devote resources to this They're basically just massive missiles that spew out a swarm of nuclear drones. Not as expensive as a normal capital ship.

You sure about that?

Not sure, the Minbari cruiser has a lot of blind spots and is very poor at handling swarm tactics.

Where are you getting that impression from?

Valid points. But hey its the only proposed offensive program anyone has suggested. And yeah its not great but you can't win a war without offense. Someone propose a better offensive suggestion and I'll listen.

No has because no else believes this war is winnable, merely survivalable. I'm with Deep on this, the only choice in the face of such an overwhelming enemy is to make their victories too costly for them to want to keep going.

Well if you can't beat them one way try beating them another. Its the same approach terrorists make. They can't defeat the US military in a classic warfare style fight. But they can butcher enough civilians that the US will withdraw. The EA is in a similar plight. It can't defeat the Minbari military so the next best thing is butchering its population. Its not like there's any other option here.

When has the US ever pulled out anywhere because of terrorist attacks?

You bring up a good point with the distances but for another reason. Light travels relatively slow. I guess we'd have to see how far combat happens at to know for sure. If light is delayed too much then it would be a big problem. But then you could have computers adjust for light delay and what not. And yes the ship would hardly blot out a star but again it doesn't have to. Remember how we detect exo-solar worlds? There are two ways, gravity, which would not be the way we would apply to ships. And a world that moves between its home star and us the viewers. The Minbari ship would behave the same way. Computers would detect like a 0.001% decrease in light and it would point to a ship being there.

I think it would be a very useful program. Naturally if the light takes 15 minutes to travel between sides of a conflict that would be an issue. But I don't think distances are that far in B5. Mars' ships weren't hitting Earth. So long as the lag time wasn't more than a few seconds it should work fine.

I doubt the distances involved were more than a few light seconds at the very most, probably not even that. Still, two flaws I see in this system
1) You still need to know where the Mimbari ships are to aim your cameras at them. The big advatange of radar and the like, is it's omni-directional. This system would need to be carefully aimmed to work. Which kind of circles back on itself, you need to aim it to dectect the Mimbari, but you need to detect the Mimbari to aim it. Now once the Mimbari start shooting you you could aim it back along the lines of their beams, but by then you're probably screwed.
2) We don't know exactly how the stealth systems work. The only thing we know for sure is it isn't invisibility, normal visible wavelengths of light do still bounce off their hulls. Beyond that though, who knows what the system does? Does it scatter sensor waves? Absorb them? Does it block the ship's own emission of IR and other outputs? Maybe it's a field around the ship that fucks with the electormagnetic spectrum. Without really knowing how the stealth system works, you can't really say you have a way to beat it.


Onward to the drone stuff...lets ignore the expense questions, the logistics of finding worlds, the AI...lets focus a bit more basic here. You think these drones could be a good system, you know what, they could be. The technology base exists to support it. The problem is this...you are introducing a new element into the B5 universe, and pitting it up against an unaltered representation of the Mimbari. You pit them against this weapon system under the assumption that all we saw in the show was all they had. I have to say that's silly.

The thing to remember is that this is a show. There are limits to just how much the writers can include, how many varients. We've never seen anything like the system you are descirbing in the show. Does that mean it might not theoretically exist? No, it just might. But by the same token, I can say that it's equally possible and likely that the Mimbari would have a system capable of defeating it. We've never seen them with such a system, but surely the technology base exists there for them to have made it.

If you're going to introduce new elements into the genre, elements that we've never seen but that might be possible, well then I will too. I'll say the Mimbari could have orbital defense platforms (well within their technological limits, and I don't think it's outside their species' mind set), and that these platforms have either rapid firing or wide pattern beams. Your wave of drones comes in, and the platforms sweep the area clean.

At this point we can really only digress further and further, you could offer up another bit of hypothetical tech to counter my bit of hypothetical tech, which I could then counter, and on and on and on, getting further and further away from anything we've ever seen in the show.

Simple truth, the writers set things up so that earth didn't have a chance. That was the whole point, the story required that the Mimbari stomp all over the EF. They gave the EF one win, and that win was accomplished by cunning and a good deal of luck. Things were purposefully stacked too far against the EF. The Mimbari tech was as much beyond the EF as the EF would be against any modern military. Victory is not an option, survival is the best you can hope for. The point of the war wasn't for humanity to win, it was to show the human perserverience, to show us refusing to quit, refusing to lay down and take it. We were going to lose, but damn it, we were going to make them work for every victory.

Simple truth, the writers set things up so that earth didn't have a chance. That was the whole point, the story required that the Mimbari stomp all over the EF. They gave the EF one win, and that win was accomplished by cunning and a good deal of luck. Things were purposefully stacked too far against the EF. The Mimbari tech was as much beyond the EF as the EF would be against any modern military. Victory is not an option, survival is the best you can hope for. The point of the war wasn't for humanity to win, it was to show the human perserverience, to show us refusing to quit, refusing to lay down and take it. We were going to lose, but damn it, we were going to make them work for every victory.

Very very very well said!

Lighthawk wrote: Oh, my bad, forgot to turn off my stealth system

You sure about that?

Well with far fewer systems on it it should be shouldn't it?

Where are you getting that impression from?

Watching the show and their lack of coverage with their weapons. The rear for example seems very open.

No has because no else believes this war is winnable, merely survivalable. I'm with Deep on this, the only choice in the face of such an overwhelming enemy is to make their victories too costly for them to want to keep going.

Yeah, I guess I'm thinking that if the EA can make the war too costly for the Minbari civilians it'll accomplish the same thing faster.

When has the US ever pulled out anywhere because of terrorist attacks?

I'm saying that's their line of thinking. And it has worked in other countries. Spain for example.

1) You still need to know where the Mimbari ships are to aim your cameras at them. The big advatange of radar and the like, is it's omni-directional. This system would need to be carefully aimmed to work. Which kind of circles back on itself, you need to aim it to dectect the Mimbari, but you need to detect the Mimbari to aim it. Now once the Mimbari start shooting you you could aim it back along the lines of their beams, but by then you're probably screwed.

True. That is still an issue. I guess I'd have to see how the EA sensors work. And you'd have to install these systems on 6 sides of the ship to get complete viewing. But you can't deny that it would significantly increase the ability for EA ships to take on Minbari ships.

2) We don't know exactly how the stealth systems work. The only thing we know for sure is it isn't invisibility, normal visible wavelengths of light do still bounce off their hulls. Beyond that though, who knows what the system does? Does it scatter sensor waves? Absorb them? Does it block the ship's own emission of IR and other outputs? Maybe it's a field around the ship that fucks with the electormagnetic spectrum. Without really knowing how the stealth system works, you can't really say you have a way to beat it.

This doesn't matter since its measuring the light of objects behind the ship. And if there's an odd spike because of it screwing with the electromagnetic spectrum it still would work because it still would read a description and the EA ships could respond.

I think the targeting solution works well. It won't ever work as well as normal but it should increase EA ships chances. And I don't think that it can be argued not to use the targeting solution. It isn't a cure all but it sure evens the playing field.

The technology base exists to support it. The problem is this...you are introducing a new element into the B5 universe, and pitting it up against an unaltered representation of the Mimbari. You pit them against this weapon system under the assumption that all we saw in the show was all they had. I have to say that's silly.

Valid point. I guess we don't know. But we do know they seem to be slow to move against new threats. And as Deep pointed out the warrior cast only likes wars they can win. A war against an unpredictable foe might make them lose support. I guess a lot of unknowns. But we've never seen them employ anything that could work against the drone swarms.

If you're going to introduce new elements into the genre, elements that we've never seen but that might be possible, well then I will too. I'll say the Mimbari could have orbital defense platforms (well within their technological limits, and I don't think it's outside their species' mind set), and that these platforms have either rapid firing or wide pattern beams. Your wave of drones comes in, and the platforms sweep the area clean.

True but I can't design a weapon against something I know nothing about :p I can design it against what we've seen in the show. I'm writing for what I have seen in the show. Inventing things yeah but its things that the EA has the power to make and as everyone has pointed out there's no way for the EA to win with their current equipment.

So trying to solve this unsolvable problem requires some new military equipment to be installed yes. Like sensors that read a star's light output which would mean a passing ship (And I still think that's brilliantly original of me ). And a swarm drone missile.. which I admit probably wouldn't work against the Minbari but might against a difference race like the Narn or the Centauri.

Monroe wrote:Their tactics would not change if their worlds started to burn.

That is quite a big assumption. They haven't changed their tactics because it wasn't necessary but if you start to make some progress against them and especially if you threats with obliterate big civilian centers i think they are smart enough to make some adjustments.

To sum this up, all the evidence shows a EF win is just impossible. Stalemate would only work if the EA could draw out the war, prevent the disruption of the Peace Talks and keep Earth from falling in the mean time. How that last one is done has ranged from simple to just silly depending on the person who's stating it. But regardless, those three items are the only ones not contested.

Draw out the war and avoid to many direct battles.
Work the peace talks for as much and as long as possible.
Protect Sol and in doing so support the idea of drawing out the war.

I think that about does it for this thread. Anyone disagree?

Would peace talks with the Minbari even be possible? They attacked in retaliation to their Leaders death, and then went literally on a holy rampage. They were ready to obliterate Earth if it wasn't for them discovering that Earth souls and Minbari souls were the same. Even if Earthforce put up a very good fight I can't see the Minbari deciding it wasn't worth it and offering a truce.

The Minbari were the ones who reached for peace. The Worker and Religious Castes sent the Rangers out as peace feelers. The Narn were going to sponsor the effort.

I'm pretty sure that peace talks were attempted. The Minbari were on some holy war due to the death of one of their religious leaders, IIRC.

They were, G'kar was the translator, Sheridan and Franklin were the EA reps.

I take it The Beginning was made after the B5 series? Cause I've seen all by the last season of B5 and none of this info sounds even familiar. Like none of those characters ever talked about it :p

I still think there is some way that EA could pull out a victory even if I can't think of one. With the targeting solution that alone should prolong the war (Which technically would be all the EA would need to do due to these peace talks apparently). There must be some way out there to counter attack. I think the drones could work but starmaps aren't available apparently... how willing are the other two castes to end the war? Like would they provide coordinates for warrior facilities for the drone missiles?

Monroe wrote:I take it The Beginning was made after the B5 series? Cause I've seen all by the last season of B5 and none of this info sounds even familiar. Like none of those characters ever talked about it :p

Correct, the E-M War is covered in In The Beginning. Which for this thread is pretty much required.

I still think there is some way that EA could pull out a victory even if I can't think of one.

JMS wrote the war that it would be impossible win for the EA alone. There's no way around it without flat out ignoring canon and reality at the same time.

With the targeting solution that alone should prolong the war (Which technically would be all the EA would need to do due to these peace talks apparently). There must be some way out there to counter attack. I think the drones could work

Since the Minbari can crash automated systems with their jamming tech, Drones are worthless and we've already covered the targeting solution of yours. Which is no better then the targeting used in In The Beginning. For the counter attacks, I'm not sure but there has been mention of persons who worked behind Minbari lines and since some are seen on the show that means they not only did so but survived. I think that would be the best place to start working on anything.

how willing are the other two castes to end the war? Like would they provide coordinates for warrior facilities for the drone missiles?

If the peace talks had gone through, most likely the EA would accept defeat but I think its pretty stupid to think that the other castes are going to start handing out vital bases of operations. Made more so by the fact that they're winning the war.

Monroe wrote:I take it The Beginning was made after the B5 series? Cause I've seen all by the last season of B5 and none of this info sounds even familiar. Like none of those characters ever talked about it :p

From Wikipedia:
"The film originally aired January 4, 1998 on the TNT cable network, a couple of weeks before the season 5 run began. It focused mainly on characters part of the established Babylon 5 cast, but it did include the notable guest star Reiner Schöne (playing Minbari leader Dukhat).
...This is Earth's only real victory in the war, and the faction of Minbari that feel the war has caused enough senseless bloodshed push to use this as an opportunity to engage in peace talks with Earth...The Centauri therefore bomb the peace conference, with neither the humans or Minbari suspecting them and each assuming a rogue commander from the other side of the war carried out the attack. All hope for peace is lost, and humanity's destruction at the hands of the Minbari continues."

And Londo's speech:

"The humans, I think, knew they were doomed, but where another race would surrender to despair, the humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. In my life, I have never seen anything like it. They would weep, they would pray, they would say good-bye to their loved ones, and then throw themselves, without fear or hesitation, at the very face of death itself, never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable could help but be moved to tears by their courage, their stubborn nobility. When they ran out of ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns, they used knives, and sticks, and bare hands. They were magnificent. I only hope that when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end. They did this for two years! They never ran out of courage. But in the end, they ran out of time."