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CaptainQuantum wrote:The question you have to ask is what was Scotty thinking? Weren't there lab mice (or lab beagles) to test his new transporter techniques on? Even an ensign's hamster or lieutenant's shitzsu would be better choices than an admiral's beagle.

He was thinking, "I'll show them," and the Admiral's beagle would be sure to get their attention. He just didn't plan on it not quite working right.

Captain Seafort wrote:There had already been significant changes even before Nero showed up.

What changes were these? Not saying I don't agree but haven't really thought about this aspect of it.

I think they're refering to the Kelvin, which would be a pretty damn big ship for the prime time line.

Uniforms and bridge designs.

Ok, theory number 1: the differences between TOS and STXI before the arrival of Nero were caused by the knock on effects of the events of First Contact.

We saw at least one of those knock on effects in ENT - the Borg in the Arctic. Who is to say there weren't others?

Theory number 2: the differences between TOS and STXI before the arrival of Nero were caused by the Temporal Cold War.

As a plot device it may have been silly but the TCW had to mess with the timeline in a zillion ways. Maybe the Xindi invasion never happened in the "prime" TOS timeline. That alone must've made humanity much more defensive.

So maybe TOS/TNG/VOY/DS9 is the prime timeline, ENT is alternate timeline 1 and STXI is alternate timeline 2.

Forget a map of space, we need a map of time. Maybe Crewman Daniels can lend us that 29th century holographic one he had.

As bizzare as it feels to say this, I like the idea of the Xindi war making the Federation more defensive starting them down the "Bigger is better" road.

CaptainQuantum wrote:Ok, theory number 1: the differences between TOS and STXI before the arrival of Nero were caused by the knock on effects of the events of First Contact.

We saw at least one of those knock on effects in ENT - the Borg in the Arctic. Who is to say there weren't others?

Theory number 2: the differences between TOS and STXI before the arrival of Nero were caused by the Temporal Cold War.

As a plot device it may have been silly but the TCW had to mess with the timeline in a zillion ways. Maybe the Xindi invasion never happened in the "prime" TOS timeline. That alone must've made humanity much more defensive.

So maybe TOS/TNG/VOY/DS9 is the prime timeline, ENT is alternate timeline 1 and STXI is alternate timeline 2.

Forget a map of space, we need a map of time. Maybe Crewman Daniels can lend us that 29th century holographic one he had.

This thought actually makes a lot of sense, as if Abrams thought how he could make it work with the other timeline, thus making a lot of the tech in ENT make a lot more sense. If this was how he intended it to be, that would be an incredible method, making everyone happy.

Personaly, I simply treat it as an alternate reality, as per my time travel theory. Given the differences that already existed prior to the Narada's arrival, it seems apparent that they really are in an alternate universe, one not born solely from Nero's interference.

There's no real evidence of changes prior to Nero arriving. We've never seen a ship of that time period before, nor have we seen the uniforms anywhere else. The fact that they are different from TOS doesn't really matter this is at least 25 years prior to TOS possibly even more, as we know Kirk did a lot of stuff prior to taking command of the Enterprise. As for the Kelvin, well there are plenty of ships classes we've never seen before. The Kelvin could easily be one of those missing ships.

IanKennedy wrote:There's no real evidence of changes prior to Nero arriving.

There is indeed:

The Kelvin is at least the size of the E-nil, heavily implied to be starfleet's most powerful ship, a decade earlier than her.
It had point-defence guns in addition to the main phasers, something never seen in the main universe (and about bloody time).
The bridge was clearly and older, more primitive version of the neo-E (complete with window ) rather than the viewscreen observed on all other ships.
The crew were wearing the same primary-colour uniforms at a time when the entire crew wore beige or blue.
They wore the Starfleet delta, at a time when each ship had a unique logo.

Captain Seafort wrote:

IanKennedy wrote:There's no real evidence of changes prior to Nero arriving.

There is indeed:

The Kelvin is at least the size of the E-nil, heavily implied to be starfleet's most powerful ship, a decade earlier than her.

Size does not mean power. The Kelvin basically seemed to be a big shuttle carrier. Someone has sugested it was a scout, but it could equally be a medical evac ship.

It had point-defence guns in addition to the main phasers, something never seen in the main universe (and about bloody time).

But equally could have turned out to be a complete failure. After all the E-D did not have a transwarp drive, yet the Excelsior did.

The bridge was clearly and older, more primitive version of the neo-E (complete with window ) rather than the viewscreen observed on all other ships.

Again, perhaps the tech simply wasn't a success, or view screens gave a significant advantage over a window. For example the view screen is 3D, certainly by the time of TNG, not something you can easily do with a hood.

The crew were wearing the same primary-colour uniforms at a time when the entire crew wore beige or blue.

As they did in TOS films, basically there's nothing you can tell from the uniforms, a large number of the TOS films had different uniforms (TMP differs from TWOK etc for example). Given this was 25 years prior to TOS (at a minimum) there's plenty of time for dozens of uniform changes. Star fleet seems to change uniforms at will. First we see TOS change to TMP which then changes to TWOK etc and there's also TNG, season 1 is different from 2, plus we then change to DS9 style uniforms all over the period of about 10 years (for TNG).

They wore the Starfleet delta, at a time when each ship had a unique logo.

Perhaps the Kelvin was the first ship to use the delta, after all there was no enterprise at that point.

Indeed, agreed on all that Ian. There's absolutely nothing solid to indicate that the Kelvin isn't part of the original timeline.

One more thing against the Kelvin being a different time line. Do we really want a film that starts in one alternate time line and then switches to another because Nero comes through.

IanKennedy wrote:One more thing against the Kelvin being a different time line. Do we really want a film that starts in one alternate time line and then switches to another because Nero comes through.

That'd be like crossing the streams.

It would almost be as bad as having a huge red reset button mounted on the captains chair. At the end of the film the button is pressed and everything goes back to normal.