of klingon design....

[Deepcrush]

The Russian military hasn't really changed over the last 60 years. Its still just one big joke.

[Reliant121]

I can certainly see the KE of the TOS period selling the RSE a few ships to get their hands on a cloaking device. Especially since the RSE's BOP were not warp capable, it would do them good to get a relatively dependable warp capable cruiser in their midst. Maybe even reverse engineer it a little. The KE would have LOVED the cloaking device, as the TOS era KE are very much the sneaky enigmatic enemy, much like Romulans of TNG. It would suit their traits and personality down to a T.

[Captain Seafort]

The Russian military hasn't really changed over the last 60 years. Its still just one big joke.

Hardly. Their armour may not be up to the standards of the big three, but it's no slouch, their ships and submarines are good (if they worked, at any rate) and its only since the F22 and Super Hornet were introduced that the west has had better fighters than them - the Flanker and Fulcrum are definitely better aircraft than the F-15, F-16 and early model F/A-18.

They've never had any problems with quality - they may have been slightly behind the west technologically, but they made up for that with reliability and numbers. The problem is that during the 90s they didn't have enough money to keep everything ticking over, so fundamentally good equipment was reduced to rust.

[Deepcrush]

By word of a USN guy I worked with, he used to joke about how loud their subs were. The F-14 was a great MiG killer (retired now I know). Their tanks, even in their tanks they were 20 years behind.

[Tyyr]

The subs did pretty well but were always one to two generations behind the west. Maneuverability is great in their fighters but they never had it in the electronics.

[Captain Seafort]

By word of a USN guy I worked with, he used to joke about how loud their subs were.

Which generation are we talking about here? From what I've read, until the 688Is and Trafalgars started coming in Russian subs were as quiet if not quieter than western subs, thanks to hemisphere bows, sickle blades, etc.

The F-14 was a great MiG killer (retired now I know).

It would be pretty hard not to be when your missiles have 3-4 times the range of anything else in the air.

Their tanks, even in their tanks they were 20 years behind.

They've tended to be a generation or so behind, but not so far as you imply, and certainly during the 70s after the US army missed its upgrade cycle thanks to Vietnam the T64 was ahead of the M60.

I'm not saying Soviet kit was the pinnacle of modern technology, but they were never more than a generation or so behind, it was famous for its reliability, and they had the numbers to overcome their limitations. It was certainly never "a joke".

[Deepcrush]

Which generation are we talking about here? From what I've read, until the 688Is and Trafalgars started coming in Russian subs were as quiet if not quieter than western subs, thanks to hemisphere bows, sickle blades, etc.

Not sure when, he was an old timer. I'm guessing between the 60's and 80's.

"They were never as quite as they used to think they were. Or as we let them think they were." Not word for word but you get the idea. He never went into details, and I never asked for them. You understand.

It would be pretty hard not to be when your missiles have 3-4 times the range of anything else in the air.

Better is better.

They've tended to be a generation or so behind, but not so far as you imply, and certainly during the 70s after the US army missed its upgrade cycle thanks to Vietnam the T64 was ahead of the M60.

I'm not saying Soviet kit was the pinnacle of modern technology, but they were never more than a generation or so behind, it was famous for its reliability, and they had the numbers to overcome their limitations. It was certainly never "a joke".

Their tanks were easy prey to the TOWs. They were good when shooting but didn't take well to the reply.

[Captain Seafort]

Not sure when, he was an old timer. I'm guessing between the 60's and 80's.

Probably the earlier part of that - the really early Russian boats were crap. By the mid 70s they were a lot more even match.

Their tanks were easy prey to the TOWs. They were good when shooting but didn't take well to the reply.

Ours were vulnerable to RPG7s. Still are in the right circumstances.

[stitch626]

About the Russian military being a joke, specifically the F-14 vs. Mig...
Take the F-4 and a Mig of that period, and 9 times out of 10, Mig wins. Does this mean that the US military is also a joke?


Besides, anything beats the French military.

[steamrunner]

The US military was a joke when it quit teaching dogfighting skills and armed the F-4 with air-to-air missiles only. Once the gunpod was introduced and got it's pilots the necessary dogfighting skills, that ratio took a dramatic shift in the opposite direction...

[Deepcrush]

About the Russian military being a joke, specifically the F-14 vs. Mig...
Take the F-4 and a Mig of that period, and 9 times out of 10, Mig wins.

Doubtful, otherwise the air support over Vietnam would have halted for several years.

Does this mean that the US military is also a joke?

Yeah, it was a joke at that time. The Army was under equipped for much of its actions. The Air Force spent more time on its nukes then it did it's front line fighters. Which left the Navy to pick up that slack.

The US military was a joke when it quit teaching dogfighting skills and armed the F-4 with air-to-air missiles only. Once the gunpod was introduced and got it's pilots the necessary dogfighting skills, that ratio took a dramatic shift in the opposite direction...

Agreed, the F-4 was a joke! However, even then there was a 4/6 to 1 kill ratio in favor of the US IIRC.

[steamrunner]

Aw, Crush, I kinda like the F-4...she wasn't built to be a dogfighter. She was originally designed to shoot down Soviet nuclear bombers with long-range air-to-air missiles. The joke was our short-sightedness in not having a better dogfighter. The kill ratio was closer to 4 than 6 - still damn good...

[Deepcrush]

Aw, Crush, I kinda like the F-4...she wasn't built to be a dogfighter.

When they built her they removed her gun because "bullets were a thing of the past". The fact remains the F-4 looked good but that was about it. The F-14 wasn't a dogfighter they thought about it when they built her.

She was originally designed to shoot down Soviet nuclear bombers with long-range air-to-air missiles. The joke was our short-sightedness in not having a better dogfighter. The kill ratio was closer to 4 than 6 - still damn good...

Still, the US' worse fighter was still above the par with the MiG of the day.

[steamrunner]

All true...

[Mark]

Reliant wrote:
Especially since the RSE's BOP were not warp capable

Say what??? Then how does a BOP move from one system to another in the crews lifetime?