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Deepcrush wrote:I have a few problems with that estimate.

A.) I don't see the Ambassador being able to support type X phasers.
B.) How are you fitting 4 PTLs where only 2 could fit before?

a) the technology has improved in phaser design since the type x was first developed. remember that the type xii was originally a starbase weapons platform, but reduction in technology allowed it to be fit on a starship. its reasonable to assume that the same upgrade in technology would allow you to swap out the original phaser arrays namely type ix and put in the more advanced type x.

b) again burst fire torpedoes made there debut here. so its easy to assume that the advancement in technology allowed for smaller components and more sophisticated firing systems. And what are you complaining about, i add a couple torpedoe launchers, the bloody lakota added 18 phaser banks and all 30 of its banks were type ix instead of the original type xiii. if they can stuff ALL that they can find room in a much larger vessel to add a couple torpedoe tubes.

Lakota sucks...

Yeah thats right I said it.

*ducks and waits for Deep to unleash hell*

a) the technology has improved in phaser design since the type x was first developed. remember that the type xii was originally a starbase weapons platform, but reduction in technology allowed it to be fit on a starship. its reasonable to assume that the same upgrade in technology would allow you to swap out the original phaser arrays namely type ix and put in the more advanced type x.

Ok, I could see this working, it would be a pain but it could work.

b) again burst fire torpedoes made there debut here. so its easy to assume that the advancement in technology allowed for smaller components and more sophisticated firing systems. And what are you complaining about, i add a couple torpedoe launchers, the bloody lakota added 18 phaser banks and all 30 of its banks were type ix instead of the original type xiii. if they can stuff ALL that they can find room in a much larger vessel to add a couple torpedoe tubes.

The newer PTLs allowed or faster rate of fire but doesn't allow for more tubes to be added. This is why the Lakota upgraded her PTLs to QTLs but still had the same number of total launchers.

Lakota sucks...

Yeah thats right I said it.

Triggers a bear trapped to Teaos' sack!

Teaos wrote:Lakota sucks...

It didn't do too badly for an 80 year old design. Having said that, yeah, it's just come out of a big refit, has all the fancy new bells and whistles, and it gets its arse kicked by a ship a tenth its size. It sucks.

Maybe you all forget that the battle against the UFPs Uber ship carring the best firepower to date per size and carrying half a dozen character shields ended in a DRAW... even worf couldn't take the lakota down!

The main point against the Lakota is that it would most likely take more to refit an Excelsior then it would to build a brand new Defiant.

Lakota and by extension the Excelsior RULES!

Deepcrush wrote:Maybe you all forget that the battle against the UFPs Uber ship carring the best firepower to date per size and carrying half a dozen character shields ended in a DRAW... even worf couldn't take the lakota down!

The main point against the Lakota is that it would most likely take more to refit an Excelsior then it would to build a brand new Defiant.

Lakota and by extension the Excelsior RULES!

HOWEVER!!! The Lakota was a complete and total shock to Worf and it also opened fire first.

The ship was sporting 40% more banks then what he was used to and of the heavier type 9 instead of the type 8, it also had its shields upgraded and even included high density armor AND was armed with quantum torpedoes instead of photon torpedoes. If i remember, they had designed it specifically to take on the defiant and the only thing that saved worf was the additional ablative armor that was secretly installed.

now on the other hand, the commander of the lakota new almost exactly what she was up against (except the extra ablative armor) and the defiant's capabilities. I would have to say that the Defiant won that battle, seeing as worf had to adapt tactics to a new ship while the other commander had things a little more under control. if there were a rematch, worf would win it.

IDK... I would consider both intel and adaptability to be factors of the battle, not factors outside it.

b) again burst fire torpedoes made there debut here. so its easy to assume that the advancement in technology allowed for smaller components and more sophisticated firing systems. And what are you complaining about, i add a couple torpedoe launchers, the bloody lakota added 18 phaser banks and all 30 of its banks were type ix instead of the original type xiii. if they can stuff ALL that they can find room in a much larger vessel to add a couple torpedoe tubes.

The newer PTLs allowed or faster rate of fire but doesn't allow for more tubes to be added. This is why the Lakota upgraded her PTLs to QTLs but still had the same number of total launchers.

Let's see. I swap out two Class 1 Burst Fire tubes and install 4 Class 3 Burst Fire and 2 Rear fire Pulse Torpedoes. I upgrade the Type 9 phaser array to type 10 (bringing phaser power to 165%), and increase shield strength by 165%.

Lakota swaps out 4 2nd class torpedoe tubes with 4 pulse fire torpedoe tubes. it upgrades from photon to quantum. It removes the 18 Type 8 phaser banks and crams in 30 Type 9 phaser banks (bring phaser power to 195%), then it increases its shield power by more then 180%.

And my refits are the ones that look more unlikely ......

Neither side knew everything about the other. You may SAY that you think someone won the battle but thats not how it ended out. It was a draw, cannon and done. Both ships were busted to all hell and both had the option of using QTLs to finish off the other. They couldn't bring themselves to do it. The QTs weren't even a factor as neither side used them. It came down to shields, phasers and armour.

You could also say that both ships claimed a victory of sorts.

The Defiant was taken by surprise by the Lakota and was forced to adapt in a battle against a ship built with fighting the defiant in mind.

The Lakota was taken by surprise by the Defiant's added armour and was unable to us her QTs. An 80 year old ship going toe to toe against the best warship in the fleet.

The fact that they both survived is impressive to say the least.

Deepcrush wrote:Neither side knew everything about the other. You may SAY that you think someone won the battle but thats not how it ended out. It was a draw, cannon and done. Both ships were busted to all hell and both had the option of using QTLs to finish off the other. They couldn't bring themselves to do it. The QTs weren't even a factor as neither side used them. It came down to shields, phasers and armour.

You could also say that both ships claimed a victory of sorts.

The Defiant was taken by surprise by the Lakota and was forced to adapt in a battle against a ship built with fighting the defiant in mind.

The Lakota was taken by surprise by the Defiant's added armour and was unable to us her QTs. An 80 year old ship going toe to toe against the best warship in the fleet.

The fact that they both survived is impressive to say the least.

Well although I could easily argo the 80 year old ship part of what you wrote, I can atleast see your point and although not conseeding any part of my argument, will table it as much of a draw betwen the two of us as between the lakota and the defiant.

I think Deep's argument was that you're looking to replace two burst-fire tubes with 4 type-3 burst-fire tubes AND 2 pulse tubes. However, I don't thinkit's TOO outlandish. The issue of whether or not the Lakota is unlikely or reasonable is moot, however, because it DID exist on-screen.

ultron2099 wrote:

b) again burst fire torpedoes made there debut here. so its easy to assume that the advancement in technology allowed for smaller components and more sophisticated firing systems. And what are you complaining about, i add a couple torpedoe launchers, the bloody lakota added 18 phaser banks and all 30 of its banks were type ix instead of the original type xiii. if they can stuff ALL that they can find room in a much larger vessel to add a couple torpedoe tubes.

The newer PTLs allowed or faster rate of fire but doesn't allow for more tubes to be added. This is why the Lakota upgraded her PTLs to QTLs but still had the same number of total launchers.

Let's see. I swap out two Class 1 Burst Fire tubes and install 4 Class 3 Burst Fire and 2 Rear fire Pulse Torpedoes. I upgrade the Type 9 phaser array to type 10 (bringing phaser power to 165%), and increase shield strength by 165%.

Lakota swaps out 4 2nd class torpedoe tubes with 4 pulse fire torpedoe tubes. it upgrades from photon to quantum. It removes the 18 Type 8 phaser banks and crams in 30 Type 9 phaser banks (bring phaser power to 195%), then it increases its shield power by more then 180%.

And my refits are the ones that look more unlikely ......

Wrong, by a mile. Excelsiors started with 4 PTLs and upgraded that into 4 QTLs. 4 into 4...
Your ship turns 1 burst fire PTL into 4... your sense of logic is about as good as my spelling... and i'm a very bad spellir...(hint!)
What you should have done was upgrade both of your PTLs into Rapid Fire PTLs, or even RF-QTLs as that would in fact be possible.
Your armour and shield upgrades give me no trouble. Such things get better with time so an upgrade is only natural.

Phasers are different, they need little space as the main need for them is power. Upgrading your power systems allow for upgraded phasers. The number of banks doesn't really matter so much as those just give you a better weapons arc. There is no way to think that they are firing all of them at once.

Would you happen to have any other thoughts or thoughts about having thoughts?

Its so good to be back.

ultron2099 wrote:

Deepcrush wrote:Neither side knew everything about the other. You may SAY that you think someone won the battle but thats not how it ended out. It was a draw, cannon and done. Both ships were busted to all hell and both had the option of using QTLs to finish off the other. They couldn't bring themselves to do it. The QTs weren't even a factor as neither side used them. It came down to shields, phasers and armour.

You could also say that both ships claimed a victory of sorts.

The Defiant was taken by surprise by the Lakota and was forced to adapt in a battle against a ship built with fighting the defiant in mind.

The Lakota was taken by surprise by the Defiant's added armour and was unable to us her QTs. An 80 year old ship going toe to toe against the best warship in the fleet.

The fact that they both survived is impressive to say the least.

Well although I could easily argo the 80 year old ship part of what you wrote, I can atleast see your point and although not conseeding any part of my argument, will table it as much of a draw betwen the two of us as between the lakota and the defiant.

Agreed, a draw it is.

The Lakota class is awesome. Thats just itt. Compared to the god ship Defiant class, it drew? A hundred year old hulk of a ship beating the best starfleet has to offer? Thats a testiment to the Excelsior class hull. One for supporting the huge armament that starfleet piled into it (Quantum torpedoes, high firepower phaser banks etc.) and 2, Captain/Commander Benteen took on the best starfleet has to offer (worf, sisko and the rest of them) and drew! You cant tell me thats not bloody fantastic for a ship that is so aged.