www.ditl.org

Rochey wrote:

A few of the first shots we see coming from the Scimitar come from this front section of the ship. The torpedo launchers could be the larger openings we see. It is all about tying as much as possible in together.

If the launchers were the big openings, then those are some excessively big launchers. It'd make far more sense for the smaller circular openings to be the tubes.
And we already have two disruptors established to be at the front of the ship, so it's quite possible for the shots to have come from those established guns.

That could be, in fact you are probably right. The Romulans are not known for a there torpedoes so their launchers may not be able to fire multiple torpedoes so more tubes make sense.

It look to me that those shots came from the front of the ship.

I'll check the video again, but as far as I can remember the shots came from the dorsal front.

....again that could be, it is really hard to tell.

I think you misunderstood me here. You state that system with power sources, could have been mistaken for disruptors, then listed torpedoes as one of them.

No, you've misunderstood my original statement. I said that, to find the location of torp launchers, Worf probably scanned for the anti-matter that powered the torps. I mean that to be a completely different point to the disruptors. Sorry if that wasn't too clear.

Yes I did, sorry.

I agree that we could easily get to that number, if you look at the section of the ship were the Cloak was drop it was not very large, and might have had a few cloak emitters in that section alone. The only thing I would dis agree with is the scan misreading tractor beams, since those are seen all the time. Even without them it still makes sense.

*shrug* So maybe the tractor beam emitters weren't confused with the disruptors. It makes little difference, I only listed them as a possible candidate.

As I said even without them you can still get to 52 very easy. It is a good theory.

We have seen Data and other give tactical information from other stations before.

Yes, when adressed by Picard.

Even more reason for everyone to look at the weapons and what state they are in.

No, it's even more reason for everybody to be doing their assigned jobs and trust the Tac officer to do his.

At that moment the Scimitar was the most important thing going on.

Even if Worf was the only one to look at the scan, why did he not correct that later on? I'm sure he and others, including that Captain reviewed that scan as they were preparing for the battle.

Then maybe he was corrected off-screen. Who knows. The point is that his statement doesn't jive with what we see. For that simple fact to exist without violating Occam's Razor, Worf's statement must have been incorrect. Whether or not he corrected himself later when they gained more accurate data on the Scimitar is fairly irrelevant.

Perhaps incorrect becasue the scans were wrong, but for him to misread 6 as 52 and then not immediately correct it is hard to believe. Since the a false sensor makes like you described makes more sense and helps explain other things way not just go with that?

Ignore - To refuse to pay attention to; disregard. (From the American Heritage Dictionary)

And we are doing neither of those things. We are rationalising his statement in light of what we see. That this requires us to conclude he was wrong does not mean we're refusing to pay attention to it.

At this point we are arguing semantics.

Really you think it would be above the Cloak? The ship was powerful enough to destroy two new Romulan ships and the Flag ship of the federation. I would say what ever price was worth it.

The weapons would logicaly be above the cloak. WIthout hte weapons, the ship is useless as a warship, thus making the ship useless tacticaly.
And I know the ship was powerful enough for its size.

Unless you take into account that the cloak also let the ship deploy it's main weapon, the theloran weapon, without being detected. Remember the Scimitar only had to fight after the initial plan of taking Picard failed.

If the ship was not crippled in the first burst that there could be problems.

Not really, no. The Scimitar had the perfect cloak, and was more than maneuverable enough to stay away from the E-E if Shinzon hadn't been an idiot. Not to mention the fact that its shields were incredibly powerful. It could easily hang back out of range while its weapons charged up before slipping back into range to launch another attack. It's basic tactics.

While perfect the Enterprise was still able to hit it. Plus be use this tactic you give your enemy time and breathing room.

Also it has seemed that multiple hits on a shield do more then one large impact equal to all those hits. Look that the Prometheus. Instead of trying to out load a ship with every larger and more powerful weapons the Prometheus was designed to put more point of impact on an enemies shield.

That the Prometheus class has more guns than other ships of the same size is because it's a dedicated warship, not because of some never-before-mentioned effect on shields.

Captain Seafort wrote:Ah f**k, wrong button.

Sorry about that nickerson, that was meant to be a reply, not an edit.

Not a problem, I did think I was going batshite insane for a moment.

m52nickerson wrote:A few of the first shots we see coming from the Scimitar come from this front section of the ship. The torpedo launchers could be the larger openings we see.

Or the larger openings could be the shuttle/fighter bays which we know from the ramming scene to be in the bow.

Could be, but I agree with Rochey that they are probably the disruptors and the smaller are the torpedoes.

It is all about tying as much as possible in together.

It's about producing the simplest explanation consistent with all the facts.

Is one complex theory that explains multiple parts really worse that a separate simple theory for each part?

It look to me that those shots came from the front of the ship.

Upper centre from what I could tell, where we already know there's an emplacement - the one that took out the second Valdore.

Unless those were torpedoes. I looked at that a bunch of times and the shots all hit the Valdore at the same near 90 degree angle. Since the Valdore was still moving forward and the Scimitar was stopped this would not fit with disruptor fire.

I think you misunderstood me here. You state that system with power sources, could have been mistaken for disruptors, then listed torpedoes as one of them.

Torpedoes wouldn't produce a significant power signature while stored, but the launcher certainly would.

Yes they would, Rochey and I cleared this up, I misunderstood his first statement.

We have seen Data and other give tactical information from other stations before.

Usually, as I recall, in the middle of a battle, when the tactical officer was busy firing weapons. At the time we're talking about the Scimitar had just decloaked, so the ship would have been in the middle of shifting from normal operating conditions to yellow or red alert. Such a shift, involving reallocation of power and sensor resources from non critical systems to tactical systems, waking sleep-shift crew members, and getting everyone to their assigned duty station, would have required the coordination of the Ops Manager - Data. Geordi would similarly have been busy supervising the boosting of the warp core from ticking over to a much higher output in case of possible combat

I don't remember them going to red alert at that time, I could be wrong. We should look at this scene and be sure.

Even if Worf was the only one to look at the scan, why did he not correct that later on? I'm sure he and others, including that Captain reviewed that scan as they were preparing for the battle.

Maybe he did. Remember that sequence of the ship preparing for action, including reviewing scans of the Scimitar? It's possible that it was then that It was discovered that the initial estimates had been too high. Or it wasn't realised until the battle, at which time everyone was somewhat preocupied with surviving.

This seems just as likely as the shots we don't see being from other weapons. At this point Rochey's theory is far superior.

If the ship was not crippled in the first burst that there could be problems. Also it has seemed that multiple hits on a shield do more then one large impact equal to all those hits. Look that the Prometheus. Instead of trying to out load a ship with every larger and more powerful weapons the Prometheus was designed to put more point of impact on an enemies shield.

1) If the first salvo isn't fatal, so what? The Scimitar's aledgedly got the best cloak ever deployed - a competent commander would simply wheel away and stay out of weapons range until his weapons had rechaged.

If the cloak is some how overcome your ship is now screwed. Why would you want to give your enemy any time to breath.

2) Trying to use the piece of shite that is the Prometheus as an example of a good design is an exceptionally bad idea.

GrahamKennedy wrote:Agreed. The thread is remaining open if people want to continue posting here, but it might be a good idea for all sides to stop and think about whether there is any point in carrying on. And whether the level of anger and insult is really a good way to go.

stitch626 wrote:This is sorta on topic...
Why on Earth did the Scimitar have huge reverse engines that were specifically for reverse (as opposed to the standard impulse drive)?
After watching the movie again (slept through most of it, until the battle when my cat woke me up), this has really bothered me.

That could be, in fact you are probably right. The Romulans are not known for a there torpedoes so their launchers may not be able to fire multiple torpedoes so more tubes make sense.

As I said even without them you can still get to 52 very easy. It is a good theory.

At that moment the Scimitar was the most important thing going on.

Unless you take into account that the cloak also let the ship deploy it's main weapon, the theloran weapon, without being detected. Remember the Scimitar only had to fight after the initial plan of taking Picard failed.

While perfect the Enterprise was still able to hit it. Plus be use this tactic you give your enemy time and breathing room.

No, I was talking about the fact that it could separate and put a greater number of weapons on a target. If a single large weapon was as good or better at knocking down shields that why didn't the federation just design a larger phaser to arm the ship with? I'm sure that would have been simpler that the separation mode.

Rochey wrote:In keeping with M52's more calm and polite reply, I'll do the same since we seem to be on the path to reaching a conclusion.

That could be, in fact you are probably right. The Romulans are not known for a there torpedoes so their launchers may not be able to fire multiple torpedoes so more tubes make sense.

Agreed. In fact, I believe Worf did identify a fairly large number of tubes (26, IIRC). That they weren't fired during the battle can be attributed to problems with the cloak; if the tube expels a load of gas, it's going to broadcast the ship's position immediately.

That is perfectly reasonable. Even if the shots that destroyed that Valdore were torpedoes the position of the Scimitars was known already so the exhaust would not matter.

As I said even without them you can still get to 52 very easy. It is a good theory.

Okay.

At that moment the Scimitar was the most important thing going on.

Correct, and for all the knew the Scimitar could have been deployed to ambush and destroy them (a logical concern, given that it decloaked suddenly within firing range). In such an instance, the wisest course of action would be to have everyone prepared for combat. Ie, the helmsman would be ready to take evasive maneouvers, Geordi would be ready to deal with damage control, and Worf would be trusted to deal with tac concerns on his own. If Geordi was busy reading Worf's report when the Scimitar's torpedoes slammed into the engineering hull there could be serious problems. It'd be far better for everyone to have their undivided attention focused on doing their jobs, and trusting those officers to do their jobs.

Still, that said this is no longer that important to me, as my new theory doesn't rely on this at all. So I'm just going to drop this argument.

Agreed.

Unless you take into account that the cloak also let the ship deploy it's main weapon, the theloran weapon, without being detected. Remember the Scimitar only had to fight after the initial plan of taking Picard failed.

Can the thelaron weapon be used when cloaked? The only instance we see it being used is when the ship is already de-cloaked. And given the amount of power it would take to use the weapon, it's not too illogical to assume that charging it up might knock out the cloak.

A good question. I would think it would. Mainly because I don't think the thelaron genorator powered the whole ship. You do have to take into account that when we saw the weapon used the Scimitar had taken a great deal of damage.

While perfect the Enterprise was still able to hit it. Plus be use this tactic you give your enemy time and breathing room.

The E-E was only able to hit the Scimitar because Shinzon hadn't a clue what he was doing. If it were commanded by someone competant it could have torn the E-E to shreds without them being able to do anything about it.
Also, while your enemies have maybe a dozen or so seconds in which they aren't getting pummeled, there's nothing they can do. Their shields aren't going to recharge anywhere near that quickly, and they'll be too busy running damage control to do anything.

Even when going for that big one shot hit you would still have to come within range of your enemies weapons. This really goes to what does more damage to shields, single large hits or smaller sucessive hits.

No, I was talking about the fact that it could separate and put a greater number of weapons on a target. If a single large weapon was as good or better at knocking down shields that why didn't the federation just design a larger phaser to arm the ship with? I'm sure that would have been simpler that the separation mode.

You mean like the phaser lance?
And the use of the Prometheus' MVAM mode has been debated before. Believe me when I advise you that you do not want to open that particular can of worms. IIRC, the last debate on it reached something like twice as long as this debate has gone on for.

A good question. I would think it would. Mainly because I don't think the thelaron genorator powered the whole ship. You do have to take into account that when we saw the weapon used the Scimitar had taken a great deal of damage.

Even when going for that big one shot hit you would still have to come within range of your enemies weapons. This really goes to what does more damage to shields, single large hits or smaller sucessive hits.

May be, but more on the lines of a more powerful phaser.

Take a supporting wall. If you put a large hole in that wall you probably will not buckle the entire thing. Most of the wall is still intact. One the other had if you continually put small holes in that wall you will weaken its overall straight and possibly cause it to fail. Yes I know a wall in not exactly equivalent to a shield, but it that best way I can explain were I'm going.

m52nickerson wrote:Even when going for that big one shot hit you would still have to come within range of your enemies weapons.

Take a supporting wall. If you put a large hole in that wall you probably will not buckle the entire thing. Most of the wall is still intact. One the other had if you continually put small holes in that wall you will weaken its overall straight and possibly cause it to fail. Yes I know a wall in not exactly equivalent to a shield, but it that best way I can explain were I'm going.

Rochey wrote:

A good question. I would think it would. Mainly because I don't think the thelaron genorator powered the whole ship. You do have to take into account that when we saw the weapon used the Scimitar had taken a great deal of damage.

I'm aware that it had taken a lot of damage at the time. But keep in mind that when in use, the ship's configuration changes. That alone would require additional cloaking generators to shield from sight. In addition, the thing would probably give off a lot of energy, meaning that even if the cloak could still function it would show up on sensors.

Cloaking the movements of the wings could be one reason that multiple smaller cloaking devises were used. Do you think the thelaron generator would give off more energy then the singularities used to power Warbirds? To me it seems that if at all possible allowing the Scimitar to charge and fire the thelaron weapon would be a top priority. That way it could sneak right up to an enemy, planet or ship, and take it out no fuss no muss. It might have even been that the designers designed that ship to do this then later discovered that the conventional weapons could also be used while cloaked, whether that was 6 weapons or a portion of 52.

Even when going for that big one shot hit you would still have to come within range of your enemies weapons. This really goes to what does more damage to shields, single large hits or smaller sucessive hits.

I'm aware that you'd have to return back into range to open fire. But you can stay out of range while it's still charging, leading to you taking less damage overall.

All that may be true for a one on one situation, but against multiple enemies that steadily becomes harder.

May be, but more on the lines of a more powerful phaser.

That's exactly what it is. And that's my point. If we assume one big hit somehow does less damage, then it wouldn't make sense to construct such a cumbersome weapon, it'd be far smarter to build (say) six weapons one sixth the size of the lance.

....and we don't see a lot of super large heavy weapons in Trek. Most of the ships carry numbers of smaller weapons. Just like anything else each would have a place.

Take a supporting wall. If you put a large hole in that wall you probably will not buckle the entire thing. Most of the wall is still intact. One the other had if you continually put small holes in that wall you will weaken its overall straight and possibly cause it to fail. Yes I know a wall in not exactly equivalent to a shield, but it that best way I can explain were I'm going.

That assumes that all the disruptor shots hit the exact same place. That is not necessarily true. The shots could be spread out all over the ship, so it would be like putting lots of small holes in a wall all at once, rather than spreading them out over time.

Mikey wrote:Stitch makes a good point, but there's the issue with an isolated tactical analysis of the Scimitar - it's capabilities can never be seen separate from Shinzon's incompetence.