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Actually is there any possibility of a mod snipping this thread up into different topics.

We have no mods. Maybe you could send a PM to Graham or Ian to split the thread if you wan't.

I'd kind of actually like to talk about the Soverign, and I don't think that sort of discussion can survive our favorite hot topics.

Trust me. We'd just end up back here again.

We see a nearly entirely(but not quite wholly) military ship in the defiant, and the Sov doesn't seem to even approach the defiant when it comes to pound for pound firepower.

How do you figure that? What have we seen the Defiant do that the Sovereign can't?

And keep in mind, we have no canon statements or images that suggest the Sovereignp class has anyhting like the science facilities on the Galaxy class.

-Captain's Yacht, designed for special diplomatic missions. It could have some kind of delta flyer warship down there. But no, a relatively unarmed Yacht.

As Seafort said, there are weaons visible on the model, so it is armed.
And where do we hear that it's specialy designed for diplomacy?

-The official cutaway poster of the vessel that was released for First Contact designates the ship as an "Explorer Type 2".

So? What does this prove? The Federation has a tendancy of using 'politicaly correct' terms for warships. 'Type 2' could simply be how they class a battleship.

-Freaking ran out of ammo.

Keep firing long enough, and that happens to anyone.

And perhaps more importantly obviously had internal volume to spare for more.

Do we know how many it had in the first place?

-The arrangement of living quarters was designed to be modular, so that at any time a particular area could be reconfigured to create larger or smaller residential areas. That's from Alpha so it's probably cannon. This would seem to indicate some considerations for changing the type to crew carried, should the current mission change from near earth troubleshooter to something else.....

We've seen precisely zero evidence on screen, ergo it is non canon.
Memory Alpha is good for general info, but don't go there for details.

-and again things like windows to the outside in crew quarters, and all the stuff Rochey hates about starfleet vessels when they aren't pure military.

So? Even the Akira class has those. All this points out is the stupidity of Starfleet's design teams.

And is again a multirole ship, perhapse with the eventual task of deep space exploration.

No canon evidence to support those claims.

It's simply more militarized than previous multirole ships, due to the current needs of starfleet.

Or maybe its an actual warship, due to the current needs of Starfleet.

The galaxy represents the furthest starfleet went in the other direction for such a ship, going so far as to conceal its torpedo tubes.

What do you mean by 'the furthest Starfleet went in the other direction'?
And I would hardly call them 'concealed'.

If you ask someone who doesn't know trek to point out the weapon systems on that thing they'll point to the navigational deflector and the bussard collectors, maybe the bridge. That's it.

That's because Fed ships use phaser strips, things which look nothing like a conventional weapon. That's why no one would be able to notice them. Replace them with weapons people can recognize, and people will be able to point them out.

Built for a time when the Federations exploration and rapid expansion through diplomacy made them able to safely deal with their known aggressive neighbors using their larger fleet of multirole ships.

And if they built their ships with a bit of inteligence, they'd be able to do it even more safely.
Just because they're able to do something, dosen't mean they do it in the best possible way.

Captain Seafort wrote: it's a canon fact that Stafleet could design a decent warship if their lives depended on it.

That's actually a part of my argument that the Sov is a multirole. Even if you dismiss the intentions of the people designing the thing as non-cannon. You still are faced with two options.

A. Starfleet made a crappy warship. When we know they (both Starfleet and the RL writers/ship designers) could have made a good one.

B. It's multirole ship, just with a more military bent than previous multiroles.

Double positing in the hopes this gets split or something.

Same here, though I doubt it will.

Well nothing but once you have a large warship you're trading 1:1 for the multirole.

Yes? And this warship would be able to kick the crap out of the multirole.

Costing you the efficiancies proposed earlier.

What effeciencies?

Same with the escorts, since I'm pretty sure one big ship is easier for them to produce than four smaller ships that have the same sum capabilities.

So? It'd be far easier to arm the US army with AK-47s. Does this mean its a good idea?

If cannon is to be believed pretty darn often.

By all means, tell me how many times the Enterprise got into a dangerous situation that wasn't either due to the crews stupidity, or due to the ship being used as a warship.

For example those Hierachy aliens that went after voyager.

Irrelevant. How often are these guys going to pop up in the AQ?

I'm guessing they would have just let a sov or even a Galaxy sail on by.

So what?
Of course they'd let them sail by, they're far more heavily armed than Voyager.

A smaller less capable ship would probably fair worse as smaller fry would see an oportunity.

So what?
Of couse a smaller ship with a similar design would fare worse.

Damn posting errrors!

A. Starfleet made a crappy warship. When we know they (both Starfleet and the RL writers/ship designers) could have made a good one.

So what if the Sovereign was poorly designed?
A badly designed warship, is still a warship.

B. It's multirole ship, just with a more military bent than previous multiroles.

Yet we have no canon statements that suggest this.

Alright what cannon statements do we have that the thing is a pure warship? Certainly that it is designed to be more militaristic.

At least there are statements by developers off screen that the thing was mean to be more in the vein of the Excelsior class (multirole replacements for the multirole Connie) and the poster and I do believe some other stuff. Personally I think that should carry serious weight.

Also, and my memories on this are a little foggy, but weren't the crew quarters awfully spacious for a dedicated warship?

Alright what cannon statements do we have that the thing is a pure warship? Certainly that it is designed to be more militaristic.

Zero. But that's not my problem. We have seen it being used in a military role, and it has always been deployed to areas where trouble is anticipated. Ergo, we have proof that it has a military role.
Now, you must prove it has more roles than this, which was never supported by canon.

At least there are statements by developers off screen that the thing was mean to be more in the vein of the Excelsior class (multirole replacements for the multirole Connie) and the poster and I do believe some other stuff. Personally I think that should carry serious weight.

None of which is canon, and cannot be used as evidence against actual canon.

Also, and my memories on this are a little foggy, but weren't the crew quarters awfully spacious for a dedicated warship?

So? All this proves is that Starfleet couldn't design a way out of a paper bag.
Badly designed warship =/= is not a warship.

Rochey wrote:

Alright what cannon statements do we have that the thing is a pure warship? Certainly that it is designed to be more militaristic.

Zero. But that's not my problem. We have seen it being used in a military role, and it has always been deployed to areas where trouble is anticipated. Ergo, we have proof that it has a military role.
Now, you must prove it has more roles than this, which was never supported by canon.

So? All this proves is that Starfleet couldn't design a way out of a paper bag.
Badly designed warship =/= is not a warship.

Well off the top of my head at the start of Insurrection the ship was in full swing in its diplomatic role until they got the call about Data. Also they were initially sent out in Nemesis under the guise of a diplomatic mission. What were they up to before the fit hit the shan the other times the thing was used? Also note that even starfleet science vessels are shown in combat roles, and the idea of having a movie without combat, especially these days, is insanity.

And again the fact that the thing seems to be designed as a multirole ship supports my side and strongly. I think I could argue that it's cannon that starfleet isn't made up of retards. If a things design would be good for a multirole ship and crappy for a pure military ship the most logical conclusion, by far, is that it is a multirole ship.

And I still contend that writer intent, especialy when it's in an article is pretty strong.

Well off the top of my head at the start of Insurrection the ship was in full swing in its diplomatic role until they got the call about Data.

So? Both the Son'a and the Federation wanted to use the planet and relocate the natives. It makes sense to have a warship standing by in case things turned ugly.
Can you imagine how things would have turned out if they'd sent some poorly armed civilian ship instead?

they were initially sent out in Nemesis under the guise of a diplomatic mission.

Didn't Shinzon request Picard specificaly?

What were they up to before the fit hit the shan the other times the thing was used?

Unknown, but the fact that they were mere days away from all of these locations points to that time not being used for exploration or science missions, and leads us to the conclusion that they were likely on patrol duty.

Also note that even starfleet science vessels are shown in combat roles,

So? If I saw a speedboat with an illegaly mounted machine gun shooting it out with a police boat, does that mean that the USS Nimitz isn't a warship?

and the idea of having a movie without combat, especially these days, is insanity.

Irrelevant. We are looking for an in-universe solution.
And there are plenty of succesful films without combat in them.

And again the fact that the thing seems to be designed as a multirole ship supports my side and strongly.

Except there is zero evidence that the ship is a multirole ship, while there is plenty to suggest that it is a warship.

I think I could argue that it's cannon that starfleet isn't made up of retards.

Sorry, but canon firmly agrees with me that Starfleet is made of idiots.
In fact, I can win that debate with two words: Galaxy class

If a things design would be good for a multirole ship and crappy for a pure military ship the most logical conclusion, by far, is that it is a multirole ship.

So, if the US military made a completely stupid design for a warship, and then built it, would you state that it wasn't a warship?
I'll say it again:
We have canon evidence that it has a military role.
We have no canon evidence that it is a multirole ship.
Whether or not the ship is well designed is irrelevant. The fact remains that we have seen it used in a combat role far more commonly than anything else.

And I still contend that writer intent, especialy when it's in an article is pretty strong.

If the writer wrote an article in which he stated the Federation controled a million universes, would you still consider this evidence, despite the clear canon contradictions?

The Enterprise was chosen because it was the closest ship, not because Shinzon requested Picard - although he did set it up so they were the closest ship by planting B-4 - but that had no bearing on Starfleet's decision to send it.

I must watch that film again, I only saw it once.
Thanks.

Also at the beginning of Insurection they weren't doing anything with the Son'a. They were using diplomacy to sort out something with a new federation protectorate. And I believe dialogue indicated that they'd been spending a lot of time doing this sort of thing. That didn't have anything to do with the main plot at all if I remember correctly. I think it was there just to start things off and show what the ship spends most of its time doing.


EDIT: As far as I can tell sovs only showed up three times in cannon (I couldn't remember if they showed up in DS9 but it appears they didn't) . In the first I believe they were supposed to have been going through their shakedown cruise, and possibly staying on hand for the borg attack. In the second they were actively enganged in a dedicated diplomatic mission at the start. In the third they start off driving around Riker and then they're the first to detect a positronic signature. They weren't at the system in question, and presumably a fair number of starfleet vessels would be in the sol region of space. So it at least hints that the Sov has very advanced scientific sensors. They also are then sent off on a supposed diplomatic mission where the fun starts.



Also lets put things this way. If we are given a new class of ship, and we don't know what its purpose is what are we looking for to tell if it's a warship.

So what does it take to add multirole capabilities to what would otherwise be a dedicated warship?

1. It needs some extra crew quarters (and/or the abilities to add such) to house additional scientific/diplomatic personel. Though how many more isn't clear. Also not being efficiantly purpose built for war those crew quarters will tend to be plusher.

Sov Check
Defiant Nope

2. Again not being built dedicated to war, and for purposes of entertaining it will have luxuries like multiple holodecks and the like.

Sov Check (I think it even had a ships library)
Defiant Nope.

3. In order to host diplomatic functions there should be some internal space dedicated to conference rooms and open space for guests.

Sov. Check I believe (Exactly what went down where at the beginning of first contact is a little fuzzy)
defiant nope

EDIT: Upon reading a summary of the movie it seems that the Sov, in fact, has a large banquet hall. This seems to me to be proof of multirole capabilities, because it's something added just for diplomacy.

4. Additionally a captains Yacht for regal transit to the surface would be useful. Granted they only showed the thing in use once, and that was going to the surface. But if you were making a dropship I doubt you'd build it like that. Also if it was a dropship I think it'd have been named differently.

sov check
defiant nope

5. For science you'd want a large prominent swiss army knife nav deflector. That isn't a neccesary technology, every other race gets by fine with a minimal deflector usually it isn't even visible.

Sov Check
defiant. Actually still has a vestigal one. The defiant still clings a little to multirole, though in its case it's probably less there for science more for when its operating independently on special missions and needs to do something a little sciency.

6. For science you'd also want more sensors than needed. Now sensors usually aren't visible, especially since starfleet stopped using Excelsior type sensor dome, but often they're attributed to being on the wide saucer sections.

Sov check as much as can be.
defiant nope

7. For exploration again you want luxuries for the crew to not go nuts and you want a focus on top speed over things like combat manuverability and system vulnerability.

sov Check
defiant all about the combat manuverability.

8. Again to fit the extra stuff you need for multirole in you'd tend to have a bit of a "puffy" design. This could be a serious consideration in an era of ablative armor, debatably shields don't care how big you are, but when you add extra space it means you have to use more or thin out your ablative armor. Also being puffier than needed costs you combat manuverability, which we have seen can be a big deal tactiacally.

Sov Check
defiant pure efficiancy

9. Last thing I can think of. A multirole ship would tend to have multiple shuttlebays and NOT fill them up with fighters the way an Akira is supposed to.

Sov check. This is supported by cannon, there is a lot of space dedicated to multiple shuttle bays and in NONE of the fights it got into did it ever belch out a swarm of fighters no matter how dire the situation. And we know starfleet had fighters at that point. I consider this extremely strong evidence in fact.

So what I'm saying is we have the ship in cannon being used for pure diplomacy missions, and it has all the hallmarks of being a multirole ship.

Rochey wrote:

Actually is there any possibility of a mod snipping this thread up into different topics.

We have no mods. Maybe you could send a PM to Graham or Ian to split the thread if you wan't.

I'm happy to split this if someone wants to indicate what topics it should be split into.

Oh and writing up that list it occurs to me that most of what you need to be multirole is complimentary and cheap. Though they do increase your area and make you less manuverable.

For example the fighterless shuttlebays are useful for exploration, science, and diplomacy all that the same time. And they don't seem resource intensive to make, maybe the runabouts and such are though, but then again Voyager seemed to consider them pretty cheap.

Extra crew quarters and things like ships libraries? Seems pretty easy to replicate.

Extra sensors and scientific equipment? Useful on a warship too. And again problem solving using our science and medical facilities forms a fair bit of Federation diplomacy.

And if they're on one ship the extra systems can possibly benefit from being connected.

Maybe think of it like getting one computer with a TV tuner card, DVD burner, high end video card vs three computers with only one each. A lot more cost and bother for only slight improvements at their specialties.

So, did you just (a) give a list of reasons why the Sov sin't a warship, and then (b) explain that all those things could be mods to a warship? I think you just defeated your own argument, but:

1. It needs some extra crew quarters (and/or the abilities to add such) to house additional scientific/diplomatic personel. Though how many more isn't clear. Also not being efficiantly purpose built for war those crew quarters will tend to be plusher.

Sov Check
Defiant Nope

The Sov is far larger, more powerful in terms of generation, faster,et. al. Perhaps having more quarters than the Defiant is due to the larger crew than the Defiant.

2. Again not being built dedicated to war, and for purposes of entertaining it will have luxuries like multiple holodecks and the like.

We know Starfleet likes to keep its people comfortable. Chances are that the Defiant would have thos luxuries had there been room.

4. Additionally a captains Yacht for regal transit to the surface would be useful.

We have never seen anything to indicate that the Cousteau is useful as a dilpomatic, or even passenger, transport. We have only seen it used as an equipment transport and as a tactical craft.

5. For science you'd want a large prominent swiss army knife nav deflector. That isn't a neccesary technology, every other race gets by fine with a minimal deflector usually it isn't even visible.

No, the navigational deflector is used to keep the ship from getting destroyed by spaceborne dust and debris while traveling at warp.

6. For science you'd also want more sensors than needed. Now sensors usually aren't visible, especially since starfleet stopped using Excelsior type sensor dome, but often they're attributed to being on the wide saucer sections.

Unfounded speculation. And if there were in fact some basis to make a value judgement of the Sov's sensors v. the Defiant's, who is to say that they aren't used for things like target acquisition, tracking, and guidance?

7. For exploration again you want luxuries for the crew to not go nuts and you want a focus on top speed over things like combat manuverability and system vulnerability.

Why wouldn't you want to keep the crew of a warship from going nuts as well? And whoever said that the Sov sacrificed maneuverability and survivability for top speed? In fact, compared with the SOTA Romulan designs in ST: Nemesis I believe the Sov showed INCREDIBLE survivability.

8. Again to fit the extra stuff you need for multirole in you'd tend to have a bit of a "puffy" design. This could be a serious consideration in an era of ablative armor, debatably shields don't care how big you are, but when you add extra space it means you have to use more or thin out your ablative armor. Also being puffier than needed costs you combat manuverability, which we have seen can be a big deal tactiacally.

The Sov's overall layout and design principles seem to follow those of the other ships of the most recent generation, which layout ostensibly has a beneficial effect on the warp field/sustainable speed.

9. Last thing I can think of. A multirole ship would tend to have multiple shuttlebays and NOT fill them up with fighters the way an Akira is supposed to.

Sov check. This is supported by cannon, there is a lot of space dedicated to multiple shuttle bays and in NONE of the fights it got into did it ever belch out a swarm of fighters no matter how dire the situation. And we know starfleet had fighters at that point. I consider this extremely strong evidence in fact.

Where exactly did we ever see onscreen an Akira-class launching fighters? In RL we have enormous numbers of warships that don't launch either aircraft or tactical surface craft, but they are still most definitely warships.

Mikey wrote:So, did you just (a) give a list of reasons why the Sov sin't a warship, and then (b) explain that all those things could be mods to a warship? I think you just defeated your own argument, but:

I gotta go but my point is that all starfleet ships, even the Galaxy, are designed to be able to fight. What we're talking about is if the Sov is a pure warship, designed only to fight. Or if it is a multirole craft, designed to perform non-combat missions as well as fight.

The point of the above is that the Sov has a wide array of things a pure warship would not need, and that the defiant, actually being nearly pure warship, does not have.

Also I edited things probably while you were posting. In cannon they are clearly performing diplomatic roles and clearly have facilities purely dedicated to that.