Gamma Mission Prep

[Mark]

The first thing that comes to my mind is the question, is the Dominion being real, or are they jerking us around? So many things could turn out so many different ways.

[Mark]

Has anybody done a sketch of the Paladin? I don't have the vaugest idea of what it is supposed to look like.

[Teaos]

Before even refuting your main point, one of the best ST films - is about a God ship; the cube. It can be good if you make it good - it depends on writers ability; I've shown there are plenty of RPing opportunities - a lot of them better than just doing the boring, unoriginal "it's gonna be a close 'un".

Though all the above is irrelevant - it's not a god ship, because it's comparable with its counterparts. You wouldn't compare the Sovereign with the Oberth, Constitution etc, would you? You'd compare it with the Valdores and Neghvars. You don't compare the Paladin with Dominion Bug Ships or Intrepids, you compare it with Dominion Battleships, Spheres, and Scimitars.

Firstly FC is a horrible example. We have to have and use this ship over the coarse of multiple battles and mini missions, for us to have to come up with some far fetched senario everytime is destructive to the story line and un realistic. Once, yeah maybe we could do it and make it believeable. But if we make this ship as strong as you want our fleet as a whole and that ship in paticular will never really be in danger which is the whole point of this mission. We are in the GQ, cut off from all help with the mission of finding and dealing with a splinter group of the Dominion.

You said you want this thing to have 10,000< DITL rating? That makes it over 6 times more powerful then the next ship in the fleet and way more powerful than anything the Dominion can field bar the Battleship which isnt exactly going to sneak up on us. If thats coming we're going to have the whole fleet to deal with it.

The ship the way we built it is plenty strong, the DITL calculator in my opinion doesnt do it justice since it doesnt take into account many of the features we have and will build into it.

The Sovereign of 2370, a luxury battlecruiser, scores 2700
If the Sovereign were a top level battlecruiser of 2370 - a purebreed warship, it would probably score about 3800 [this would entail stronger phasers, only quantum torpedos, and stronger shields]
If the Sovereign were a top level battle cruiser of 2390, it would probably score about 7000

First the standard Sov is hardly Luxury, it is a massive step down from the GCS.

Secondly you say to add stronger shields and phasers? Where is the power from that coming from, cores have limits to the amount of power they can out put and bigger cores seem to be more unstable. You are just scaling everything up with no down sides, very fanboyish. Look at when I played with the core size, if I made it bigger it took up more space and became more unstable, like it would normally, you continually avoid any down sides to you wanktastic ship.

You also continue to ignore the factors we built into our ship that dont show up in the strength figures at all, survivability.



You continue to compare the power difference between the GCS and the Sov and say the difference between the Sov and Paladin should be the same. Thats retarded on so many levels I dont know where to start.

As I already pointed out the GCS was in no way shape or form a warship, it was a big powerful ship that due to its size could field powerful weapons.

The Sov was designed with combat in mind, everything about it was built with fighting first and other things second, and yes while there were other stuff in there the removal of said pieces would not signifigntly power up the ship.

You say the tech jump in the 20 years is huge, bull shit.

The reason the Sov is so much stronger than the GCS is because of what it was built for and a bunch of new tech. New shielding systems and QT's.

There seemed to be a massive jump in tech brough about due to the Borg.

Compare it to the tech jump on earth between 1940 and 1950, nuclear bombs, jet planes, microwaves and numerous other technologys. The differnce in those 10 years is huge while the difference in decades before and after is much smaller.


So not only do I think you are vastly under estimating our ship you are vastly over estimating yours.

Yes as you pointed out we could still RP with your ship but it destorys a lot more RP options than it creates. Having our ship which is plenty strong while not being a God ship offers much much more freedom than the Wanktastic.

[Thorin]

Firstly FC is a horrible example. We have to have and use this ship over the coarse of multiple battles and mini missions, for us to have to come up with some far fetched senario everytime is destructive to the story line and un realistic. Once, yeah maybe we could do it and make it believeable. But if we make this ship as strong as you want our fleet as a whole and that ship in paticular will never really be in danger which is the whole point of this mission. We are in the GQ, cut off from all help with the mission of finding and dealing with a splinter group of the Dominion.

We only need to make a semi-far fetched scenario (which we can write into being realistic!) for this scenario. For other missions - where we may be fighting Borg, Romulans, etc, THEY will have their battleship counterparts which would not require ours to be toned down.

You said you want this thing to have 10,000< DITL rating? That makes it over 6 times more powerful then the next ship in the fleet and way more powerful than anything the Dominion can field bar the Battleship which isnt exactly going to sneak up on us. If thats coming we're going to have the whole fleet to deal with it.

Remember - all the other ships would have been upgraded too. This battleship should - by Trek standards/the design brief - be well over 10,000. However, the Sovereign, a luxury battlecruiser (perhaps we could even, at some point, have one that is ugpraded to a proper battlecruiser?) would have been ugpraded accordingly, bringing it from 2700 to perhaps 6000.

The ship the way we built it is plenty strong, the DITL calculator in my opinion doesnt do it justice since it doesnt take into account many of the features we have and will build into it.

It takes into account the things I'm arguing very well, because they're based simply on maths. The energy of the shields, the power of the phasers, and the rate of fire/explosive power of the torpedos are all quantitive, there is no "unable to do it justice" on these. Overall, I'd agree, it can lose some "justice points" - but not on those.

First the standard Sov is hardly Luxury, it is a massive step down from the GCS.

Oh come on, everything we've seen on the Sovereign - not just the combat systems - are better than the Galaxy. The quarters seem just as big, the corridors just as big, the holodecks just as big, etc etc etc! For what's meant to be a battlecruiser, it IS luxury.

Secondly you say to add stronger shields and phasers? Where is the power from that coming from, cores have limits to the amount of power they can out put and bigger cores seem to be more unstable. You are just scaling everything up with no down sides, very fanboyish. Look at when I played with the core size, if I made it bigger it took up more space and became more unstable, like it would normally, you continually avoid any down sides to you wanktastic ship.

No, the downsides of scaling up the Sovereign to be a proper battlecruiser are losing all the luxury aspects. Ripping out the massive corridors. It WOULD then be a proper battlecruiser; with quarters and corridors the size of those on the Defiant. That is a major downside, but it would improve the strength of the ship - freeing up both energy and space

You also continue to ignore the factors we built into our ship that dont show up in the strength figures at all, survivability.

Again, as I said, I'm only arguing about the three most quantitive attributes; torpedos, phasers, and shields. All are mathematically comparable to other ships.

You continue to compare the power difference between the GCS and the Sov and say the difference between the Sov and Paladin should be the same. Thats retarded on so many levels I dont know where to start.

As I already pointed out the GCS was in no way shape or form a warship, it was a big powerful ship that due to its size could field powerful weapons.

As pointed out - the Sovereign was not a warship, either. There was still a lot that could have been improved on it.

The Sov was designed with combat in mind, everything about it was built with fighting first and other things second, and yes while there were other stuff in there the removal of said pieces would not signifigntly power up the ship.

Doesn't matter if things were second - and yes, it would significantly power up the ship! The quarters and corridors should all be halved, and seemingly most of the saucer section is made of quarters, and a hell of a lot more made of corridors. If you halved both of those you'd be freeing significant space and (what was previously) life support energy, and probably a load of other things.

You say the tech jump in the 20 years is huge, bull ****.

I'm saying it should be because of the trend - but even in my post on the matter - I underestimated the trend significantly (approaching half!) to take into account any peak trending at the Sovereign. And we know that 20 years is enough to have major advances - Voyager and Endgame; yes it's more than 20 years, but not much, and the technology in there is outstanding - but I'm not possibly suggesting adding 20m thick ablative armour or transphasics.

The reason the Sov is so much stronger than the GCS is because of what it was built for and a bunch of new tech. New shielding systems and QT's.

There seemed to be a massive jump in tech brough about due to the Borg.

Yes, there may well have been, but other things will have taken place between 2370 and 2390, aswell as that, even if there was a massive jump - I took that into consideration by significantly underestimating the trend.

Compare it to the tech jump on earth between 1940 and 1950, nuclear bombs, jet planes, microwaves and numerous other technologys. The differnce in those 10 years is huge while the difference in decades before and after is much smaller.

Only the nuclear bomb, and considering the Sovereign had no comparable nuke, it's ridiculous to suggest that. The others have all been improved on significantly, and as I said, the Sovereign could still have plenty more potential.

So not only do I think you are vastly under estimating our ship you are vastly over estimating yours.

Yes as you pointed out we could still RP with your ship but it destorys a lot more RP options than it creates. Having our ship which is plenty strong while not being a God ship offers much much more freedom than the Wanktastic.

It's not the wanktastic - it fits in line with OUR design brief of SF saying "the best battleship we can possibly build in 2390". That's what this ship is. It doesn't destroy more - only in this particular situation would anything that may seem 'far fetched' be required, and that can open up so many more avenues if it's written right. If we use this again - against other fleets with real counterparts- it would be squished like a bug. There could even be quite a good one involving all out war with any other number of species - how they have comparable battleships, but they have many of them, and it shows SFs lack of concern for the requirement of such a ship - the fact it's taken so long for an out and out battleship.

Basically, the Sovereign is 'only' a battlecruiser and a luxury one at that, it has plenty more potential, the Paladin is a battleship - a class above the battlecruiser - and is 20 years ahead in time.
My ship suggested DOES fit realistically with Trek, given the brief that SF has fictionally given; the best of 2390. The only leg you have to stand on is how it is to RP, and as I've said, it COULD destroy many RPing opportunities only if we allow it to. In this mission it opens up massive opportunities; in future ones against comparable fleets it wouldn't - or even we could do something increadibly simple - we wouldn't have it in the fleet; it's on some deep space border patrol. Remember the last time we've seen a fleet was 2378, I'm sure there's been a few more developed since. We could easily say in 2390 there's been a whole lotta ships designed. The current design could be one - probably around the Frigate level (comparable, but probably weaker than, a 2390 refitted Sovereign), and we could either continue using this, but change the brief to that of a Frigate, or we could use this in later scenarios, and keep the Paladin SF's "best battleship we can make". Either way, the ship we have at the moment is not the best SF can do - and still, I'm only talking about the mathematically comparable aspects.

[Teaos]

We only need to make a semi-far fetched scenario (which we can write into being realistic!) for this scenario

Appart from the Dominion Battleship coming to fight us name me 3 senarios in which our ship faces even a partially credable threat. And if we do go by your numbers the Dominion Battleship isnt even really a threat.

Remember - all the other ships would have been upgraded too. This battleship should - by Trek standards/the design brief - be well over 10,000. However, the Sovereign, a luxury battlecruiser (perhaps we could even, at some point, have one that is ugpraded to a proper battlecruiser?) would have been ugpraded accordingly, bringing it from 2700 to perhaps 6000.

Yeah they will be upgraded but there is only so much upgrading you can do to standard designs.

It takes into account the things I'm arguing very well, because they're based simply on maths. The energy of the shields, the power of the phasers, and the rate of fire/explosive power of the torpedos are all quantitive, there is no "unable to do it justice" on these. Overall, I'd agree, it can lose some "justice points" - but not on those.

AGAIN you ignore my point about power. Phasers and shields need a stronger core to power them, stronger cores are bigger and more fragile. You continually ignore this point. When we were designing the ship we had this in mind and made a decision to not over power it so as to make it more reliable.

The ship was designed and planned by a dozen people who came to decisions, Sure I had to make up some numbers but most of those were based off canon evidence.

You continue to over look the fact that there is just no more room for more torpedoe tubes and powering up the phasers to much more is dangerous.

Oh come on, everything we've seen on the Sovereign - not just the combat systems - are better than the Galaxy. The quarters seem just as big, the corridors just as big, the holodecks just as big, etc etc etc! For what's meant to be a battlecruiser, it IS luxury.

We've seen a lot less of it. The corridors seem smaller. The only rooms we have seen are the senior officers. Sickbay is smaller, all ships need holodecks. We havent seen or heard of the multiple labs and rec rooms the GCS had.

Again, as I said, I'm only arguing about the three most quantitive attributes; torpedos, phasers, and shields. All are mathematically comparable to other ships.

Torpedoes need space which we just dont have. We could probably squeeze another one tube in but thats it. Phasers and Shields both require more power which you STILL over look. Ripping out a few labs wont make much difference in power consumption.

As pointed out - the Sovereign was not a warship, either. There was still a lot that could have been improved on it.

It was built with combat as its primary mission. Its a warship. While yes it could be improved you over estimate how much and the cost of doing it.

The others have all been improved on significantly, and as I said, the Sovereign could still have plenty more potential.

Yeah they have been improved but gradually over time like my plans show.

It's not the wanktastic - it fits in line with OUR design brief of SF saying "the best battleship we can possibly build in 2390". That's what this ship is. It doesn't destroy more - only in this particular situation would anything that may seem 'far fetched' be required, and that can open up so many more avenues if it's written right. If we use this again - against other fleets with real counterparts- it would be squished like a bug. There could even be quite a good one involving all out war with any other number of species - how they have comparable battleships, but they have many of them, and it shows SFs lack of concern for the requirement of such a ship - the fact it's taken so long for an out and out battleship.

Basically, the Sovereign is 'only' a battlecruiser and a luxury one at that, it has plenty more potential, the Paladin is a battleship - a class above the battlecruiser - and is 20 years ahead in time.
My ship suggested DOES fit realistically with Trek, given the brief that SF has fictionally given; the best of 2390. The only leg you have to stand on is how it is to RP, and as I've said, it COULD destroy many RPing opportunities only if we allow it to. In this mission it opens up massive opportunities; in future ones against comparable fleets it wouldn't - or even we could do something increadibly simple - we wouldn't have it in the fleet; it's on some deep space border patrol. Remember the last time we've seen a fleet was 2378, I'm sure there's been a few more developed since. We could easily say in 2390 there's been a whole lotta ships designed. The current design could be one - probably around the Frigate level (comparable, but probably weaker than, a 2390 refitted Sovereign), and we could either continue using this, but change the brief to that of a Frigate, or we could use this in later scenarios, and keep the Paladin SF's "best battleship we can make". Either way, the ship we have at the moment is not the best SF can do - and still, I'm only talking about the mathematically comparable aspects.

Well it seems we are just going to have to disagree. I think you are over estimating you think I'm under estimating it.

But your right, I can accept your reasoning even if I think its wrong. The main point in my opinion is the RP aspects of it.

I think, and it seems other agree with me that your ship, while possible, is just to strong to use. Your right in the fact that we could make it work but we shouldnt have to use such convoluted situations just to make it usable.

It will be better for the RP to use our ship which offers a wider range of RP options.

[Thorin]

Then can't we come to some compromise; the ship is a frigate instead of a battleship? It allows to keep the Trek realism and doesn't make it overpowerful as to - in your opinion - ruin RPing opportunities.

[Teaos]

I could live with that, although when I think Frigate I think of something small and this is Sov size.

[Thorin]

I could live with that. Although I think it is more of a destroyer than a frigate.

I don't think it's fast enough to be a destroyer, at least it's not looking like it will be.
Anyway, so we've now got a new Frigate, and it'll probably be about the same, maybe a little weaker, than a 2390 Sovereign.

We could use my make up of my battleship in a different scenario; ala the E-E rushing in to protect the Defiant in FC.

[Teaos]

I'm fine with calling it a Frigate but I still think my point stands that it is the most powerful ship in the AQ. My whole point was I dont think you can get stronger, well not a lot stronger, we could trade off survivability for more fire power but this is pretty much as strong as a ship of this size can get.

[Reliant121]

You want to call it a frigate? I'm sorry, but are you off your rocker? A frigate would be barely bigger than a Nova in size, it would be tiny! And its weapons, EVEN if it is 2390 would be lesser.

You keep saying along the track of development. We are facing a SPLINTER group with old technology, concistant with what we've seen on the shows. Not a brand new design. Our ship is capable of beating a Dom Battleship as of 2379 with current systems.. which is what it should be.

[Teaos]

So long as we're using our ship I dont give a crap what its called. I've said it before but what we name things is about as important as Fletchers shoe size, probably why I initially called the Battleship the Hummingbird.

[Reliant121]

Fine. But i'll refuse to refer to it as a "frigate" and i'll term it by name. A frigate is the New Orleans, not a top of the line warship.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'd call it a cruiser, personaly.

[Reliant121]

At least. I'd specify as heavy/battlecruiser.

[Mikey]

Yeah, I'd go with a battlecruiser.