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Yeah...a Vessle the ISD's size should have easily taken on the Corellian Corvette in SWL: New hope. Yet the Corvette stood up for quite a while.

Deepcrush wrote:Why would you have to split anything?

You were the one who complained about the lack of ventral heavy guns. If you want heavies on both ventral and dorsal surfaces that means the main armament is split.

The ISD is just like the Romulan warbird. Looks big and tough but anything well built and half its size can match it.

Evidence?

Note that even if the ISD isn't the strongest ship for its size, it isn't a dedicated ship-to-ship combat vessel but a COIN platform. That requires some sacrifices to be made WRT its effectiveness in ship-to-ship combat.

I wouldn't give it that much credit. That shooting only lasted a minute or two. Plus the ISD wanted them alive, not destroyed.

Fair enough...i havn't seen the film in ages

Reliant121 wrote:Yeah...a Vessle the ISD's size should have easily taken on the Corellian Corvette in SWL: New hope. Yet the Corvette stood up for quite a while.

The scene in question.

It was less than half a minute from the first appearence of the corvette to the hit that disabled the main reactor (note that the Devastator was trying to disable the Tantive IV, not destroy it) and another minute or so to secure the ship in the main docking bay. That's pretty quick work.

As i said...i havn't seen the film in ages. And i'm not the kind of person to actually time sections of a film. Or take not of time in a film...to me things just happen...

No problem - I simply remembered the corvette being disabled PDQ and went looking for a YouTube clip to estimate the timings.

Nor do i bother with thing like that.

Each to their own - I like having solid numbers to base conclusions on.

Congrats on Lt Commander.

Thank you, Cpt.

You were the one who complained about the lack of ventral heavy guns. If you want heavies on both ventral and dorsal surfaces that means the main armament is split.

That doesn't mean split! That means add! The ISDs had a great upper coverage. But, they should have matched it on the underside. That would have been wise. Splitting what was already an underpowered weapons system would just a fools idea.

Evidence?

Redirected to - Return of the Jedi, Episode VI.

Note that even if the ISD isn't the strongest ship for its size, it isn't a dedicated ship-to-ship combat vessel but a COIN platform. That requires some sacrifices to be made WRT its effectiveness in ship-to-ship combat.

MC80s carry 4 squadrons of fighters, have equal shields then and ISD and full weapons cover, though their cannon were built with such things in mind. The MC90s were still smaller then an ISD, has better shields, better weapons cover, 6 squadrons of fighters and are still only 2/3rd the size! The first MC80b was the Mon Remonda who took out an ISD and at least 3 escorts before being destroyed. Again a ship that was only 2/3rd the size of an ISD.

Deepcrush wrote:That doesn't mean split! That means add! The ISDs had a great upper coverage. But, they should have matched it on the underside. That would have been wise. Splitting what was already an underpowered weapons system would just a fools idea.

Are you being deliberately dense? If the guns of the main battery are separated by the hull, and therefore incapable of concentrating all fire on a single target, the main battery is split. Whether this is done by moving some of the existing guns or adding extras is irrelevant.

Incidentally you're assuming that more guns = more firepower, which is incorrect. The ISD can direct 100% of its reactor power to the weapons, and firepower is therefore not dependant on the number of barrels. Indeed, more barrels would probably reduce the ship's combat effectiveness by reducing the output from each barrel and therefore the power per unit area on the target.

Redirected to - Return of the Jedi, Episode VI.

You mean the battle when Ackbar specifically stated that "we won't last long against those Star Destroyers" and Calrissian agreed that such an engagement was simply the lesser of two poor choices and "we might take some of them with us" (my emphasis)? Thrawn later confirmed that the Star Destroyers lost at Endor went down in battles they shouldn't have had any problem with (a result of the loss of Palpatine's micro-managing of the battle via the Force).

MC80s carry 4 squadrons of fighters, have equal shields then and ISD and full weapons cover, though their cannon were built with such things in mind. The MC90s were still smaller then an ISD, has better shields, better weapons cover, 6 squadrons of fighters and are still only 2/3rd the size! The first MC80b was the Mon Remonda who took out an ISD and at least 3 escorts before being destroyed. Again a ship that was only 2/3rd the size of an ISD.

Fighter capacity (and to a certain degree weapons coverage) is irrelevant - what matters is what sort of firepower and protection a ship can dish out. The Mon Cals are certainly tough, but they're inferior to ISDs - a fact the Mon Remonda's performance does not refute. Given a bit of luck a weaker ship can defeat a stronger one, one-on-one. The Mon Cals better shielding probably played a part in this case - they can take more, while the ISD can dish out more, leveling things out.

Your IQ must just drop a few miles on the weekend. I feel like I'm dealing with a fifth grader. I don't see how you could be so smart with somethings and then just a waste of air on others. If power and not cannon control your ability to fight then having extra cannon allow you to fight without having to always angle your ship.

As to Endor. You're mind has yet to understand numbers, which shocks me because I suck at math and yet still get that 27 ISDs outnumber 6 MCs. Why you can't do the same counting is just funny. Borrow some figures from a friend and figure it out.

If the Mon Remonda is weaker then an ISD as you seem to be crying about. Then, how is it that the M.R. was able to do what it did? A weaker ship against a stronger ship plus its escorts. At this point in time you're just talking for the sake of talking. Get over it and deal with it.

End game. 8)

Deepcrush wrote:Your IQ must just drop a few miles on the weekend. I feel like I'm dealing with a fifth grader. I don't see how you could be so smart with somethings and then just a waste of air on others. If power and not cannon control your ability to fight then having extra cannon allow you to fight without having to always angle your ship.

Which part of same power + more cannon = less power per cannon was unclear? For maximum firepower you'd throw everything into a single powerful weapon (as the Eclipse did). The problem with that is that a single lucky shot can disable your entire main battery, hence the distribution among many batteries.

There's also the issue of where to put them. As I've already pointed out, the forward hull of an ISD is needed for stormies and TIEs, and the lower-aft hull is full of reactor and power cells. The upper-aft hull is the only place left to put the HTLs.

As to Endor. You're mind has yet to understand numbers, which shocks me because I suck at math and yet still get that 27 ISDs outnumber 6 MCs. Why you can't do the same counting is just funny. Borrow some figures from a friend and figure it out.

Try counting. There were about 40 ISDs and Tectors at Endor, and at least a couple of dozen Mon Cals. At least 2 and probably 3 of those ships were Home One-type ships, which are far larger and more powerful than an ISD.

If the Mon Remonda is weaker then an ISD as you seem to be crying about. Then, how is it that the M.R. was able to do what it did? A weaker ship against a stronger ship plus its escorts. At this point in time you're just talking for the sake of talking. Get over it and deal with it.

Battles are not decided purely by weight of fire versus protection, but also by the skill and luck of the opposing crews. The fact that an ISD is statistically superior to a typical Mon Cal (including the Remonda) does not preclude the latter defeating the former.

Battles are not decided purely by weight of fire versus protection, but also by the skill and luck of the opposing crews. The fact that an ISD is statistically superior to a typical Mon Cal (including the Remonda) does not preclude the latter defeating the former.

This is partly true, weight of fire doesn't always give you a victory.

Which part of same power + more cannon = less power per cannon was unclear? For maximum firepower you'd throw everything into a single powerful weapon (as the Eclipse did). The problem with that is that a single lucky shot can disable your entire main battery, hence the distribution among many batteries.

Though many people don't know this you don't always have to use every weapon you have. By having more cannon you allow a greater field of fire. If the imps can't solve power problems or the reactor is already at its best then you would use the lower and upper cannon to allow you to pick your targets. You could (with the extra cannon) even out your weapons and force anyone who wishes to engage you to try to stay behind you as that would be your only remaining blind spot.

Try counting. There were about 40 ISDs and Tectors at Endor, and at least a couple of dozen Mon Cals. At least 2 and probably 3 of those ships were Home One-type ships, which are far larger and more powerful than an ISD.

I would but I don't have the movie here so I was using someone else's numbers. The Home One's from what I've seen of only had two there. Though I've heard that there was a third one but I'm not sure. I only remember seeing 6 MC80's in the battle. There may have been more as you pointed out but the ISDs still outnumbered them, had more fighters, had the DSII, had the Emperor, had a SSD, God knows what else. Even if both an MC80 and an ISD were even the odds are still very badly stacked. It was also the first time those ships had met in a large battle and like you said, the ISDs produce a good morale beater. In the end, rebels won, stats show that the ISD2s as surpassing the MC80s which forced the New Rep to build the MC90s. In end, the ISD was a great idea but poorly produced.