Scimitar vs. Sovereign

[Aaron]

No quit inadequate and lacking in imagination. So why don't you let us who are interested in coming up with something the explains everything sort this out, Thanks.

Oh FFS. You can imagine anything you want. For all I care you could imagine the Scimitar in flaming pink trailing a collection of Mardi Gras beads, the point is to come up with something that fits the facts that we see on screen. Personally I have blocked out enough of Nemesis to forget exactly what is shown but what you are doing here is called "the wall of ignorance". Your also bastardising Occams Razor.

Edit: In addition your explanation on the last page makes the Remans look even dumber than they already do. Apperently in the 24th Century the Romulans/Remans don't know what a capacitor or a battery is...

[m52nickerson]

I looked at this Video again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjRFYOcT ... re=related

Here is a list of the shots shown.

0:00 - 0:01 2 shots from the scimitar which is off screen.

0:37-0:37 7 shots. 1- no visual, 2 - shot comes from center of the front of the ship, 3 - shot from port corner of front of ship, 4,5,6,7 - scimitar now off screen.

0:56-0:59 2 shots, unclear from were

1:05 at least 9 shots on screen all at different levels.

1:32-1:33 4 shots from the aft of the ship, origin is not seen.

1:36-1:38 5 shots white in color disable Romulan ship. All shots hit at around a 90 degree angle, likely torpedoes.

1:54 2 shot from aft of scimitar, origin not seen.

1:55 3 shots on green the other two white scimitar off screen.

1:58 4 shots from 4 locations 2 white and 2 green, then 2 more from lower points.

2:00-2:01 3 shots from off screen then 2 more from small lower arms.

2:10 four shots from front of ship all white, likely torpedoes.

We see a mix of disruptor shots and torpedoes, we also see clearly at least 6 location from the front on the ship were shots come from all other shots the origins are obscured or are off screen. I see no reason to assume that all those shots come from only a few locations since we only see a couple point fire more then once. Even these are from a good distance away and you can't tell if they are exactly the same points.

[m52nickerson]

No quit inadequate and lacking in imagination. So why don't you let us who are interested in coming up with something the explains everything sort this out, Thanks.

Oh FFS. You can imagine anything you want. For all I care you could imagine the Scimitar in flaming pink trailing a collection of Mardi Gras beads, the point is to come up with something that fits the facts that we see on screen. Personally I have blocked out enough of Nemesis to forget exactly what is shown but what you are doing here is called "the wall of ignorance". Your also bastardising Occams Razor.

Edit: In addition your explanation on the last page makes the Remans look even dumber than they already do. Apperently in the 24th Century the Romulans/Remans don't know what a capacitor or a battery is...

Sorry I did not realize that a battery or capacitor can't charge slowly.

NO, when one has a simpler explanation that does not include all the evidence it is not preferred. Again saying that Worf, Data and any other members of the bridge crew that were looking the scans of the Scimitar made the exact same mistake in utterly ridiculous. So we are left with what, there must have been some thing that tricked the sensors, and made it seem like there were 52 disruptors, not so simple.

So can you or anyone else explain how that sensor trick was done, any small thing to back it up.

.......and not its not like hiding in a magnetic poll because that only hides a ship from the sensors, not makes them pick thing up that are not there.

[Captain Seafort]

I looked at this Video again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjRFYOcT ... re=related

Not the best video to use, as it only shows a small part of the battle, unlike the full version Rochey used.

1:05 at least 9 shots on screen all at different levels.

Judging from the paths of those bolts they were fired from two or three weapons. The burst of shots that took off the Valdore's wing in particular struck conseculatively, indicating a single point of origin.

1:32-1:33 4 shots from the aft of the ship, origin is not seen.

The origin certainly is seen - you can see the muzzle flashes, all from exactly the same point.

1:36-1:38 5 shots white in color disable Romulan ship. All shots hit at around a 90 degree angle, likely torpedoes.

Again, from the above weapons emplacement.

1:54 2 shot from aft of scimitar, origin not seen.

The origin is seen - it's the same emplacement that took out the second Valdore.

1:55 3 shots on green the other two white scimitar off screen.

1:58 4 shots from 4 locations 2 white and 2 green, then 2 more from lower points.

2:00-2:01 3 shots from off screen then 2 more from small lower arms.

This entire sequence shows four emplacements - two inner ones (white, possibly torpedoes) two outer (green, possibly disruptors) The latter are clearly comming from protusions below the inner wings.

2:10 four shots from front of ship all white, likely torpedoes.

Weapons paths indicate one, possibly two emplacements. The position indicates strongly that they're the same launchers seen at 1:58.

We see a mix of disruptor shots and torpedoes, we also see clearly at least 6 location from the front on the ship were shots come from all other shots the origins are obscured or are off screen. I see no reason to assume that all those shots come from only a few locations since we only see a couple point fire more then once. Even these are from a good distance away and you can't tell if they are exactly the same points.

The evidence in that short clip supports four forward emplacements (two torps, two disruptors) and one aft.

[Captain Seafort]

NO, when one has a simpler explanation that does not include all the evidence it is not preferred.

We are including all the evidence. You are the one who's trying to pretend that we're seeing something completely different to what's actually occuring, simply to shore up your opinion that people can't possibly make mistakes.

Again saying that Worf, Data and any other members of the bridge crew that were looking the scans of the Scimitar made the exact same mistake in utterly ridiculous.

Why, when they're falible individuals who have been know to make far worse foul-ups in the past (Data particularly).

So can you or anyone else explain how that sensor trick was done, any small thing to back it up.

THE FACT THAT WE ONLY SEE HALF A DOZEN EMPLACEMENTS FIRING!!! HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TELL YOU?!

...and not its not like hiding in a magnetic poll because that only hides a ship from the sensors, not makes them pick thing up that are not there.

Congratulation for completely missing the point, idiot. The magnetic POLE and Lagrange point examples show that Fed sensors can be easilly blocked and/or tricked. Futher we have evidence from DS9 that "thoron fields and duranium shadows" can fool ship's sensors into believing that a vessel or station is far more heavilly armed than it actually is.

[m52nickerson]

I looked at this Video again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjRFYOcT ... re=related

Not the best video to use, as it only shows a small part of the battle, unlike the full version Rochey used.

If someone post a link I will look at that video.

1:05 at least 9 shots on screen all at different levels.

Judging from the paths of those bolts they were fired from two or three weapons. The burst of shots that took off the Valdore's wing in particular struck conseculatively, indicating a single point of origin.

They were all on different levels of the screen with the same flight path, perhaps one or two were from the same weapon, but that is at least 5 weapons.

1:32-1:33 4 shots from the aft of the ship, origin is not seen.

The origin certainly is seen - you can see the muzzle flashes, all from exactly the same point.

We see the glow of the shot against the hull of the ship.

1:36-1:38 5 shots white in color disable Romulan ship. All shots hit at around a 90 degree angle, likely torpedoes.

Again, from the above weapons emplacement.

Since these shot come from off screen there is no way to verify this.

1:54 2 shot from aft of scimitar, origin not seen.

The origin is seen - it's the same emplacement that took out the second Valdore.

While the origin is not seen, I would agree that it is the same weapon or group.

1:55 3 shots on green the other two white scimitar off screen.

1:58 4 shots from 4 locations 2 white and 2 green, then 2 more from lower points.

2:00-2:01 3 shots from off screen then 2 more from small lower arms.

This entire sequence shows four emplacements - two inner ones (white, possibly torpedoes) two outer (green, possibly disruptors) The latter are clearly comming from protusions below the inner wings.

No look again none of the first 4 shots come from the lower protrusions.

2:10 four shots from front of ship all white, likely torpedoes.

Weapons paths indicate one, possibly two emplacements. The position indicates strongly that they're the same launchers seen at 1:58.

Or launches placed close together, we know from picture of the front of the scimitar there are 2 large openings flank by two groups of 3 smaller opening. That is at least 8 weapons in the front part of the ship.

We see a mix of disruptor shots and torpedoes, we also see clearly at least 6 location from the front on the ship were shots come from all other shots the origins are obscured or are off screen. I see no reason to assume that all those shots come from only a few locations since we only see a couple point fire more then once. Even these are from a good distance away and you can't tell if they are exactly the same points.

The evidence in that short clip supports four forward emplacements (two torps, two disruptors) and one aft.

I don't know how you come up with that.



In this picture alone we see 2 large openings, 6 smaller openings. Plus we have the small lower wing like structures, we can see only one against the plant, that the 2 larger upper wings. That is at least 12 forward weapon emplacements.

[m52nickerson]

NO, when one has a simpler explanation that does not include all the evidence it is not preferred.

We are including all the evidence. You are the one who's trying to pretend that we're seeing something completely different to what's actually occuring, simply to shore up your opinion that people can't possibly make mistakes.

The sensor scan it evidence and as it has been shown that it is quite possible to account for both the scan and the visuals and expliantion that doesn't account for both is lacking and un-imaginative.

Again saying that Worf, Data and any other members of the bridge crew that were looking the scans of the Scimitar made the exact same mistake in utterly ridiculous.

Why, when they're falible individuals who have been know to make far worse foul-ups in the past (Data particularly).

True they are all fallible, but for them to all read 6 as 52 is utterly ridiculous.

So can you or anyone else explain how that sensor trick was done, any small thing to back it up.

THE FACT THAT WE ONLY SEE HALF A DOZEN EMPLACEMENTS FIRING!!! HOW MANY f***ing TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TELL YOU?!

....and the fact that there are multiple theories why that may be. Not a hard concept.

...and not its not like hiding in a magnetic poll because that only hides a ship from the sensors, not makes them pick thing up that are not there.

Congratulation for completely missing the point, idiot. The magnetic POLE and Lagrange point examples show that Fed sensors can be easilly blocked and/or tricked. Futher we have evidence from DS9 that "thoron fields and duranium shadows" can fool ship's sensors into believing that a vessel or station is far more heavilly armed than it actually is.

The addition of extra fields or shadows take away from the "simplest explanation doesn't it.

[Captain Seafort]

If someone post a link I will look at that video.

Voila

They were all on different levels of the screen with the same flight path, perhaps one or two were from the same weapon, but that is at least 5 weapons.

When I say "the same flight path", I mean they were following each other. They were at different levels, but they were tracking diagonally, indicating the same point of origin.

We see the glow of the shot against the hull of the ship.

We saw a flash on a single point of the hull at the point of firing, which faded too slowly to be related to the glow of the bolt itself - it's a muzzle flash.

Since these shot come from off screen there is no way to verify this.

We saw the aft emplacement tracking the warbird as it passed over, then cut to the belly of the warbird being hit. Whether the shots seen were the same ones seen being fired immidiately before or subsequent shots, it's the same emplacement.

No look again none of the first 4 shots come from the lower protrusions.

I reran the clip at least half a dozen times - they're coming from the under wing guns.

Or launches placed close together, we know from picture of the front of the scimitar there are 2 large openings flank by two groups of 3 smaller opening. That is at least 8 weapons in the front part of the ship.

We know there are unidentified structures in the Scimitar's bow. They could be weapons, transporter emitters, tractor beams, sensor arrays, communications, hangars (which we know to be in the forward hull from the ramming sequence) or something else. We don't see anything firing in that initial appearence, therefore we can't state for a fact that they're weapons.

I don't know how you come up with that.

The fact that that's the number of guns we see shooting.

In this picture alone we see 2 large openings, 6 smaller openings. Plus we have the small lower wing like structures, we can see only one against the plant, that the 2 larger upper wings. That is at least 12 forward weapon emplacements.

That's at least twelve structures on the forward hull of unknown function you blithering idiot. See above for a non-exhaustive list of what else they could be. The only structures we know to be weapons are those we see firing during the battle.

[Captain Seafort]

The sensor scan it evidence and as it has been shown that it is quite possible to account for both the scan and the visuals and expliantion that doesn't account for both is lacking and un-imaginative.

I see you're still ignoring Occam's Razor.

True they are all fallible, but for them to all read 6 as 52 is utterly ridiculous.

It's even more ridiculous to get a simple area calculation wrong by an order of magnitude, or to think that neutrinos are an effective moderator, or to forget about major incidents you were involved in. Data's got a track record of incompetence. Plus the fact that it's not necessarilly incompetence, but effective Reman deception.

...and the fact that there are multiple theories why that may be. Not a hard concept.

Occam's. Fucking. Razor.

The addition of extra fields or shadows take away from the "simplest explanation doesn't it.

No, it doesn't. You are claiming a whole host of additional entities to attempt to claim that what's clearly depicted in the visuals is wrong. We are claiming that what we see is what we get, and Worf was mistaken for some reason. The later requires no additional entities. The former requires many.

[Sionnach Glic]

Jesus wept.....

The sensor scan it evidence and as it has been shown that it is quite possible to account for both the scan and the visuals and expliantion that doesn't account for both is lacking and un-imaginative.

Your explaination requires Worf to have left out vital information pertaining to the Scimitar's weaponary. As has been pointed out countless times, Worf would have to be mentaly retarded not to think of mentioning that 46 of the ship's guns are completely ineffective against the E-E.

True they are all fallible, but for them to all read 6 as 52 is utterly ridiculous.

Unless the sensors were being screwed with, or there was something on the Scimitar that was directly affecting their scans, or unless the 46 other guns were dummies, or any of the other half dozen or so possibilities we've put forward.

....and the fact that there are multiple theories why that may be. Not a hard concept.

Those theories ignore Occam's Razor. Ergo, they are invalid.

The addition of extra fields or shadows take away from the "simplest explanation doesn't it.

No, it doesn't, as it uses things that are already quantifiable and known to exist and which the Romulans would presumably have had access to.
And, again, you're missing the point of his argument. He's not saying "well, the Scimitar could have had X or Y on it", he's saying "we know Fed sensors are easy to interfere with because of the incidents with X and Y".

Once again, read it, as you clearly didn't the first time I posted it.

If someone post a link I will look at that video.

I already did when you first asked me to post my analysis.

They were all on different levels of the screen with the same flight path, perhaps one or two were from the same weapon, but that is at least 5 weapons.

Did the possibility that they could have been fired at different angles occur to you? Depending on the angle of the camera, that would cause those shots to look like they were all fired at once.
In fact, the fact that the rest of the shots go well past the Warbird would suggest this to be true.

We see the glow of the shot against the hull of the ship

BS. Unless you're blind, you can clearly see where the shots originate from. Interestingly, they're perfectly consistant with the locations of the guns I'd accounted for in my analysis, further suggesting that they're the only guns in that firing arc.

Since these shot come from off screen there is no way to verify this.

And yet it's perfectly consistant with where I pegged one of the observed weapons. Telling, isn't it?

No look again none of the first 4 shots come from the lower protrusions.

After watching it several times, including on full screen, I can tell you safely that you're incorrect.

Or launches placed close together, we know from picture of the front of the scimitar there are 2 large openings flank by two groups of 3 smaller opening. That is at least 8 weapons in the front part of the ship.

Yes, there are several large protrusions on the front of the ship. Yet none of the fired on the E-E, even though the ship was well within the things' firing arc. In fact, all the shots the Scimitar fires at that point can clearly be traced back to one single point of origin.

It's quite likely that the spikey thing on the front are docking apertures, comms antenae, sensor probes, etc. Also, we know that at least two of them are part of the thelaron array.

I don't know how you come up with that.

He came up with that because of the simple fact that they're all the ones observed or implied to have fired. It's not that hard.

n this picture alone we see 2 large openings, 6 smaller openings. Plus we have the small lower wing like structures, we can see only one against the plant, that the 2 larger upper wings. That is at least 12 forward weapon emplacements.

Prove they're weapons. All anyone can see from that pic is that there's a bunch of spikes, poles and a few openings in the front of the ship. In fact, the fact that they were not observed firing on the E-E even when it was in the ship's forward firing arc would lend credence to the idea that they are not weapons.

[m52nickerson]

There are only a couple morons who don't get that hey are using Occem's Razor wrong. The theory that you have put forth does not account for the scan. The visuals we see only a small percentage of the all the shots shown coming from points on the Scimitar, the rest come from off screen. That is not enough to prove that the whole of the bridge crew made the same mistake. Nor does it suddenly indicate that there was something wrong with the sensors.

Here are some facts.

Every website that lists the armaments for the Scimitar state 52 disruptor, including the Official Site. They made the movie they get to say what is what, not you. So the answer to the question of how many disruptors does the Scimitar have is 52, and will be until something else official is released.

The footage is not a documentary, it is a sci-fi movie. Treating it as a live footage from an actual footage from a battle is retarded at best. Part of sci-fi is imagination, grow one.

I'm done with both of you, unless you add something to the discussion that helps bring the visuals, which I think you guys looked at while drunk, and the script you will be ignored just as children should be seen and not heard.

So..........take your inane six gun Scimitar and shove it!

[Captain Seafort]

There are only a couple morons who don't get that hey are using Occem's Razor wrong. The theory that you have put forth does not account for the scan.

Are you being deliberately obtuse here? Time after fucking time both Rochey and I have pointed out that Worf's statement has been taken into account. We have given many different explanations for why it's inconsistent with the visual evidence. The fact that we dismiss Worf's assesment as inaccurate is not the same as failing to take it into account.

The visuals we see only a small percentage of the all the shots shown coming from points on the Scimitar, the rest come from off screen. That is not enough to prove that the whole of the bridge crew made the same mistake. Nor does it suddenly indicate that there was something wrong with the sensors.

All the visual evidence we have points to a very small number of weapons emplacements. Your claim that there must be dozens of others simply because we didn't observe the exact origin point of every single shot is irrational.

Every website that lists the armaments for the Scimitar state 52 disruptor, including the Official Site. They made the movie they get to say what is what, not you. So the answer to the question of how many disruptors does the Scimitar have is 52, and will be until something else official is released.

Wrong. These websites are not canon. The film is. It is from the film alone that we must draw our conclusions.

The footage is not a documentary, it is a sci-fi movie. Treating it as a live footage from an actual footage from a battle is retarded at best. Part of sci-fi is imagination, grow one.

Under supension of disbelief, which is the method we must use if we're going to debate the abilities of the Scimitar rather than the cinematic qualties of Nemesis, we must treat the visuals as documentary footage.

I'm done with both of you, unless you add something to the discussion that helps bring the visuals, which I think you guys looked at while drunk, and the script you will be ignored just as children should be seen and not heard.

Translation: "Waa, waa, you're all mean for calling me on my bullshit, I'm not playing!"

[Sionnach Glic]

There are only a couple morons who don't get that hey are using Occem's Razor wrong.

Well, if we use your bastardised and incorrect "Occem's Razor", then yeah, you're right.
If you want to stick to the logical and scientificaly correct "Occam's Razor", then there's only one person in this thread who's clueless as to it: you.

The theory that you have put forth does not account for the scan.

The scan was never seen, ergo it is useless. All we have to go on is Worf's quote, and that's been explained nigh on a hundred times at this point. If you have trouble grasping this concept then I'm afraid I can't help you.

The visuals we see only a small percentage of the all the shots shown coming from points on the Scimitar, the rest come from off screen. That is not enough to prove that the whole of the bridge crew made the same mistake. Nor does it suddenly indicate that there was something wrong with the sensors.

Ah, so all these extra weapons actualy opened fire when we weren't watching the battle, despite the fact that we can hear that the impacts of the Scimitar's shots are perfectly consistant with the number of weapons I pegged as being real? Prove it.

Here are some facts.

Every website that lists the armaments for the Scimitar state 52 disruptor, including the Official Site. They made the movie they get to say what is what, not you. So the answer to the question of how many disruptors does the Scimitar have is 52, and will be until something else official is released.

Does the concept of canon mean anything to you? I could make a website stating that Picard used to be a punk rocker with purple hair. That doesn't mean it's right.

The footage is not a documentary, it is a sci-fi movie. Treating it as a live footage from an actual footage from a battle is retarded at best. Part of sci-fi is imagination, grow one.

And in addition to bastardising Occam's Razor, you're ignoring Suspension of Disbelief. Want to try twisting any more debating methods? I'm sure there's one or two still left that you haven't mutilated too much.

I'm done with both of you, unless you add something to the discussion that helps bring the visuals, which I think you guys looked at while drunk, and the script you will be ignored just as children should be seen and not heard.

So..........take your inane six gun Scimitar and shove it!

Ooh, what a well thought out and truly devastating response. Truly you have opened my eyes; my entire world view has just changed.

Or, you know, not.

So we end this debate with you running away after a petulant and supposedly scathing post that completely ignored every point made and just added another brick to the Wall of Ignorance on display here. Nice. I'm sure Blackstar would be proud.

Oh, and concession accepted.

[kostmayer]

Nice. I'm sure Blackstar would be proud.

Wondered how long that would take.

Really guys - and this is probably just me - but all this insult throwing really sucks any enjoyment out of reading a thread. I'm out of this one.

[Sionnach Glic]

There wouldn't have been any insult throwing at all if he'd debated rationaly and honestly. But his constant refusal to accept even the possibility that he might be wrong, combined with his outright dishonesty, means that I see no reason to be civil with him anymore.
If he wants us to be polite, then he should act civily towards us as well.

Besides, the thread's over now. He's run away.