Sovereign class

[Captain Seafort]

I think it was you who gave the example of the major powers after WWI agreed not to build ships that were to big even though they were capable of it. This was because of the cost and the fear of were the arms race would end up.

But the great powers of the time did not unilaterally decide to only build up to a given limit - they held an amaments conference to agree multilateral limitations on ship size and armament. And once it became obvious in the late 30s that Japan was building vessels significantly larger than the treaty limitations, the other powers likewise abandoned the treaty.

America is capable of having a larger and more powerful military than it does right now. But it has stopped building on it becuase they know they are powerful enough to fight others off.

Wrong, the US is indeed continuing to develop its military despite its currently unassailable position as the world's hyperpower. If they used the system you advocate for Trek, they would not replace the adequate F-15 with the F-22, they would not have replaced the original LA-class submarines first with the improved-LA class, and then with the Seawolf and Virginia classes. Moreover, the US today are aware of the abilitues of its rivals, whereas Starfleet, with almost 90% the Galaxy still to explore, has no idea what is waiting for it (a point Q made rather emphatically in "Q Who?") and should therefore prepare for any potential threat by building the most powerful warships it is capable of.

[Teaos]

But the great powers of the time did not unilaterally decide to only build up to a given limit - they held an amaments conference to agree multilateral limitations on ship size and armament. And once it became obvious in the late 30s that Japan was building vessels significantly larger than the treaty limitations, the other powers likewise abandoned the treaty.

For all we know there was an agreement. But I doubt it. It seems for likely that it was an unspoken one. So long as none of the powers built massive starships none of the others would.

Then as soon as a threat emerges they all build more powerful ships eg Sovereign, Negh'var and scimatar.

Wrong, the US is indeed continuing to develop its military despite its currently unassailable position as the world's hyperpower. If they used the system you advocate for Trek, they would not replace the adequate F-15 with the F-22, they would not have replaced the original LA-class submarines first with the improved-LA class, and then with the Seawolf and Virginia classes.

That is a slow build up over time so they don't become out dated. That is the same thing starfleet does every time they build a new class of ship. If america did what you are suggesting they would build aircraft carriers a mile long so bigger planes could land on them. They would build bigger subs that can hold massive nukes that can blow away half of russia in a single hit. They would deploy space based weapons platforms. But they do none of that because of cost and because it isn't needed.

[Mikey]

Actually the American military - the Navy in particular - are still pursuing HUGE leaps in military tech, and therefore ability, even though we already have the Nimitz-class supercarrier which is the SOTA. And Texas-class subs are still being produced, as well.

As far as not knowing what to prepare for, there are two maxims to follow. One is "Expect teh best but prepare for the worst." Simple common sense, especially since in teh 'Trek universe the unknown has often proven particularly nasty. The other is "Speak softly and carrya big stick." Deterrence often helps when diplomacy fails.

[Mikey]

P.S.:

They would build bigger subs that can hold massive nukes that can blow away half of russia in a single hit.

Ummm... we DO have those...

[Teaos]

"Expect teh best but prepare for the worst."

Look at the 2370 map in the main DITL page. The Federation is surrounded by known threats that we were dealing with.

It is not resonable in anyway to expect them to of been preparing for something like the Borg. No one can expect that its to out ragous. Its like saving We here and now whould be preparing for an attack of little green men from Mars.

The Dominion also was totally unforseeable. The only stable wormhole in history opens up to a huge ass super power. Yeah those guys in starfleet are idiots for not planning for that.

The only forseeable threat to the Federation was the Klingons and Romulans which they were handling just fine.

[Captain Seafort]

It's never the forseeable threats that cause problems - it's the unforseeable (or unforseen) ones that cause trouble. Saying that "we won't build the best we can because we don't need it" is a good way to guarantee that something will turn up round the next corner that you will need the best to can build to deal with. Sod's Law.

[Mikey]

Don't deliberately misinterpret my words - I never said something as foolish as "the Federation should have been preparing for an attack by a super-race of cybernetic organisms known as the Borg." To reinterpret what I said: even though the Federation didn't see a legitimate threat from the known powers in the Alpha and Beta quadrants, it was unwise to assume that there was no possible threat - and unwise to let that assumption dictate your preparedness.

[Granitehewer]

first of all, the continuing waves of submarine development such as the seawolf, GmbH 212 class and upgrades to the akulas, typhoons, and oscars amongst others are to give the submarines a more flexible role, especially in dealing with littoral waters..random fact, rather than disputing or supporting, anyones 'point.
Secondly i wasn't condoning federation design practices, but merely thinking of a reason that they are employed, as obviously building the most powerful craft possible is far more prudent than building something which only achieves parity.

[Teaos]

The Galaxy was more than a match for anything the Klingons had at the time. The Romulans had a good ship with the D'Deridex but the Galaxy still seemed superior.

In 2370 all evidence points to starfleet being able to fight a war and win against either of the two threats that faced them. Add to that that the Klingons were our allies and the Romulans hadn't been seen in decades. The Galaxy and other ships to supliment it such as the Nebula and the smaller classes was a good level of alertness.

The Akira is as powerful as it can be for a ship of its size. The other smaller ships are likewise.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that the Galaxy could have been more powerful but isnt. The fact is it is more powerful than anything else while still filling the needed roll of a flag ship. That being the ability to be diplomatic and scientific.

[Captain Seafort]

Secondly i wasn't condoning federation design practices, but merely thinking of a reason that they are employed, as obviously building the most powerful craft possible is far more prudent than building something which only achieves parity.

You're far more forgiving than I am, since your approach (if I understand you correctly) is "let's think of why Starfleet took the design decisions it did, and what factors they considered important".

My approach is simpler (and hardly a secret) - Starfleet is stupid.

[Granitehewer]

lol Seafort, you're correct, thats what i meant, and i agree partly regarding the stupidity thing, well i'll modify that to hypocritical, you'll know much much better than me, all of the ocassions that the federation has acted in a way contrary to its founding principles and declared values, so building even more potent ships would only be a minor infraction in comparison.
Although attempting to maintain the balance of power and attract new cultures to the whole, science, toleration, exploration spiel is valuable and defines the federation, at least traditionally....i do wish that starfleet, at least had a reserve of dedicated warships, kept quietly behind the scenes.

[DarkOmen]

P.S.:

They would build bigger subs that can hold massive nukes that can blow away half of russia in a single hit.

Ummm... we DO have those...

QFT... lol... our 14 Ohio Class subs carry 50% of our nuclear armament

[Sionnach Glic]

The Galaxy was more than a match for anything the Klingons had at the time. The Romulans had a good ship with the D'Deridex but the Galaxy still seemed superior.

So? Even if a Galaxy class is able to beat off a Klingon or Romulan ship, it will still take damage and casualties that could have been avoided. You're lettign the enemy damage you, when you could destroy them with ease.

In 2370 all evidence points to starfleet being able to fight a war and win against either of the two threats that faced them.

Yes, with heavy casualties that could be avoided.

Add to that that the Klingons were our allies

For how long? I've pointed out before that there should still be severe hostility among the average Klingons to the Federation. And the alliance against the Dominion was one of necessity.

and the Romulans hadn't been seen in decades

Yeah, because having a completely unknown power on your doorstep is a great reason to not build a competant military.

The Galaxy and other ships to supliment it such as the Nebula and the smaller classes was a good level of alertness.

Again, so what if they could take on either of these powers with their current forces? They would still take massive casualties that could be avoided.

The Akira is as powerful as it can be for a ship of its size.

Exactly, and we can see that its counterparts among other races are no match for it.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that the Galaxy could have been more powerful but isnt.

My problem, is that Starfleet is continuing putting sub-standard ships in as their front line force, when we know they could have ships of equal tonneage, with far less crew and far more strength.

The fact is it is more powerful than anything else while still filling the needed roll of a flag ship. That being the ability to be diplomatic and scientific.

Since when was it the role of a military flagship to be 'diplomatic and scientific'?

flag·ship /ˈflægˌʃɪp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[flag-ship] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun
1. a ship carrying the flag officer or the commander of a fleet, squadron, or the like, and displaying the officer's flag.
2. the main vessel of a shipping line.
3. any of the best or largest ships or airplanes operated by a passenger line.
4. the best or most important one of a group or system: This store is the flagship of our retail chain.
-adjective 5. being or constituting a flagship.

Well, what do you know? Nothing there about science or diplomacy.

[sunnyside]

, with almost 90% the Galaxy still to explore, has no idea what is waiting for it (a point Q made rather emphatically in "Q Who?") and should therefore prepare for any potential threat by building the most powerful warships it is capable of.

See in my opinion it's that 90% thing that's important, but I draw a different conclusion.

Having all that area unexplored, but suspecting there is plenty of crazy super powerful stuff out there as well as high tech ancienct civilizations and civilizations with incremental tech improvements you could use means that you HAVE to focus on exploration, diplomacy and science.

I think of it more as the situation in early earth history. Technologies like bronzeworking, ironworking, and most notably gunpowder were often best employed not by the nations initially discovering them but by others who aquired the technology through exploration and trade.

I feel that the positions taken by a number of people here would put them in the position of a number of nations that stopped exploring and trading and focused instead on honing their existing martial capabilities, which would be impressive enough until mounted Huns or british frigates or what have you roll in.

And in Trek this effect is even greater due to the aformentioned artifacts of power etc etc. Do you want the Klingons finding the next "Guardian of Forever" type object because you made a gunboat for boarder patrol instead of a deep space explorer?

[Captain Seafort]

Where did anyone suggest that the Federation should cease exploring? The point being made was that they should construct purpose-built ships - explorers to explore, science vessels to investigate and warships to fight, instead of trying to combine all the roles into a single package.