The potential for refits

[Captain Seafort]

You're starting to catch on Tsu.

[Deepcrush]

You're starting to catch on Tsu.

To bad we can't say the same about you...

Yeah, I know. I was just, what's the expression, "taking the piss".

We'll thank you to leave your personal life out of this.

Well, see, since Deepcrush does that a lot (he did it to me in our first debate, and he does it once in a while to others too), and he also makes grammatical mistakes, I think Seafort is entitled to do it too...

Everyone gets bashed about something. Its the way here, take it with humor.

Now, concerning the mass of the two ships:
The Akira, as I recall, is supposed to have a massive hangar throughout the saucer section, going from one side of the ship to the other. Its windows are rather large, indicating that the corridors are probably like the ones in a Nebula or Galaxy, and it doesn't have armor on. Now, the Defiant, on the other hand, is a compact design built with armor, small corridors meaning its volumic mass is higher then the Akira. I doubt it masses as much as the Akira, but it may mass half as much, even if it has 1/4th the volume.

Even with all factors involved I still can't believe that a defiant could reach a full quarter of an Akira's mass. That flight bay will only be one or two decks high. All the rest are going to be filled. The rest of that saucer is going to be packed with PTLs + ammo and phasers and generators for shields and flight controls.

If its construction material is exotic, and since it has special weapons, Warp core and nacelles, and and all that armor, it's total cost may go as high as one Akira.

But we have no information as to say if these things (other then the armor and QTs) even cost anything more then standard. For me, that leaves a Defiant far south in cost next to an Akira.

[stitch626]

I cannot believe you are arguing this way. Your acting as if there are no other ships other than the Akira or Defiant.
The Steamrunner, the Saber, the Norway... all of these could act as patrol vessels and they are most likely cheaper than the Akira and Defiant (both smallish and no QTs, ablative armor, etc).

[Deepcrush]

Its not just about cheap. The Akira isn't a patrol ship. Take a Steamrunner + Norway + Saber vs a single Defiant. The Defiant would buttrape all of them.

The important factors are a mix between cost, numbers and abilities.

Steamrunner, Norway and Saber all lack that last one.

[Reliant121]

Question: Do Escort ships take on battleships? No. If a Black Swan class WWII Frigate charged with all guns blazing against a Bismark or a King George V, or even the older Hood or Fuso classes, would that not be madness?

The Defiant could take on most of the high grade cruisers, battlecruisers or battleships of the other races and win. Thats Not an escort ship, thats a uber-attack ship. Escorts don't need that firepower. Whether the Defiant is more expensive than an Akira is completely irrelevant. Escort ships dont need that firepower, cause it costs money. Whether you want to believe it or not, i dont care. I'm Telling you, that the pulse phaser cannons would be expensive. its starfleets latest weapons tech. It may be no more expensive than type 10 or type 12 phasers, but thats overkill for an escort ship. Escort ships should cost pennies, in comparison. Take a basic hull, slap on a more extensive weapons fit of type-8/9 phasers and a few more torps, and that is that. I dont really care if you think the Defiant is cheap. It will NOT be as cheap as a Nova with all the sensors ripped out, and adding in weapons systems.

Thats what I would do. Redesign the Nova. Upgrade engines, more weapons without the overly complex sensor systems.

[Praeothmin]

Everyone gets bashed about something. Its the way here, take it with humor.

That's the reason for the ...

Even with all factors involved I still can't believe that a defiant could reach a full quarter of an Akira's mass. That flight bay will only be one or two decks high. All the rest are going to be filled. The rest of that saucer is going to be packed with PTLs + ammo and phasers and generators for shields and flight controls.

I don't know how much of an Akira's mass the Defiant is.
What I meant is that I have no doubt that the Defiant is close to twice the Akira's volumic mass, so, if, for example, the Akira had 4 times the volume of the Defiant, I believe the Defiant could have 1/2 of the mass of the Akira.
But I haven't done tha calcs, so I don't know whether the Akira has 4, 6 or 8 times the volume of the Defiant...
It was simply a Hypothesis.

But we have no information as to say if these things (other then the armor and QTs) even cost anything more then standard. For me, that leaves a Defiant far south in cost next to an Akira.

Know what?
Reading the quote, I was like:
"Did I say that?"
I do agree, thinking about it, that an Akira would still be more expensive, although perhaps not by much.
The cost discrepencies' estimates really depend on how much less volumic the Defiant is compared to the Akira...

[Sionnach Glic]

Just something that popped into my head a moment ago.

Graham suggests that the Akira may be some form of carrier ship. If that's true, a large portion of the interior space would be hollow, leading to seriously reduced mass for its size.

[Praeothmin]

Graham suggests that the Akira may be some form of carrier ship. If that's true, a large portion of the interior space would be hollow, leading to seriously reduced mass for its size.

Hum, really?

The Akira, as I recall, is supposed to have a massive hangar throughout the saucer section, going from one side of the ship to the other.
Its windows are rather large, indicating that the corridors are probably like the ones in a Nebula or Galaxy, and it doesn't have armor on.
Now, the Defiant, on the other hand, is a compact design built with armor, small corridors meaning its volumic mass is higher then the Akira.
I doubt it masses as much as the Akira, but it may mass half as much, even if it has 1/4th the volume.

[Deepcrush]

Question: Do Escort ships take on battleships? No. If a Black Swan class WWII Frigate charged with all guns blazing against a Bismark or a King George V, or even the older Hood or Fuso classes, would that not be madness?

The Defiant could take on most of the high grade cruisers, battlecruisers or battleships of the other races and win. Thats Not an escort ship, thats a uber-attack ship. Escorts don't need that firepower. Whether the Defiant is more expensive than an Akira is completely irrelevant. Escort ships dont need that firepower, cause it costs money. Whether you want to believe it or not, i dont care. I'm Telling you, that the pulse phaser cannons would be expensive. its starfleets latest weapons tech. It may be no more expensive than type 10 or type 12 phasers, but thats overkill for an escort ship. Escort ships should cost pennies, in comparison. Take a basic hull, slap on a more extensive weapons fit of type-8/9 phasers and a few more torps, and that is that. I dont really care if you think the Defiant is cheap. It will NOT be as cheap as a Nova with all the sensors ripped out, and adding in weapons systems.

Thats what I would do. Redesign the Nova. Upgrade engines, more weapons without the overly complex sensor systems.

While still strong points OOU, IU we have Defiants running under the Escort banner.

Also as a side note. I don't think anyone ever said the Defiant class was cheap on its own. Just cheaper then the next ship in the line.

[Captain Seafort]

While still strong points OOU, IU we have Defiants running under the Escort banner.

Sisko's exact phrase was "Officially she's classified as an escort vessel... unofficially the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less." Reading between the lines he as much as said "if that thing's an escort then I'm Basil Brush".

[Deepcrush]

Hey, really guys. I agree that the Defiant should be treated like something totally different. Problem is that it isn't. Monitor or Escort. While both titles fit in one form or another, its still a cruiser killer.

[Reliant121]

I would agree. The problem with using it as a escort is its cost, it's just wayyyy to high. You could redesign a small warship, or upgrade the old Steamrunner/Norways to bring em into tech line then shove them into escort duty.

[Deepcrush]

The problem with the Steamrunners, Norways and Sabers is they just can't perform up to the means of the Defiant. Even if it is expensive, it's still the best ship for the job.

Being the best ship isn't just being the cheapest or fastest or any one factor. Its everything together, balanced out for the needs and abilities of the ships in questions against the mission profile.

Seeing how the biggest threat to the UFP right now it the RSE and the Borg. The mindset of the fleet has to keep those threats in their sights. Since neither of them use small attack ships in their fleets. SF needs to keep the fleet built from ships that can withstand battle against it's enemies.

[Mark]

Guys, it seems to me that you all went off on a serious and (forgive me) pointless tangent. As Deep stated earlier, the New Orleans class was designed, built, and fielded in a completely different time and political atmosphere. She was designed with THEN cutting edge tech, (likely before the Galaxy herself rolled off the line) and as such can't REASONABLY to keep pace with newer and more powerful ships.

I think the New Orleans ships already produced will have a long career fighting pirates, catching smugglers, functioning as escorts in semi safe areas, and saving ships in distress. But I would be amazed to see any more of them produced. After all, does anyone expect Starfleet to produce any more GCS ships?

However, just like any other piece of mechanical engineering, you can only upgrade something so much before it makes more sense to just get a new one. Which seems to be what Starfleet did.

This is just an example here, the first appearance of the Akira wasn't to far away from the Intrepid class, so do we assume the Akira also has bio-neural circuitry? If the first run didn't, I'm sure the second run did. Doubtful the New Orleans could be adapted to that kind of tech, and EXTREMELY doubtful that they'd make another run of these ships just to do so.

[Mikey]

I wasn't arguing about the New Orleans being able to be upgraded to Akira level. My point was, and is, that I doubt the New Orleans was designed for the same role as the Akira at all. Older or not, the New Orleans could have had a similar number of tubes as the Akira and could have been of a similar size - allowing it to stay on-station longer or perform longer duration missions. The fact is that it wasn't built that way, so I can't see how the Akira could simply be a newer model designed to fill the same role as the New Orleans.