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Teaos wrote: A god ship is also one which can not be taken down by others with out either heavy odds or some bizarre situation.

So you consider the Sovereign a god ship? Every ship would be a god ship in certain circumstances. If you put the delta flyer against some modern day jets the delta flyer would be a god ship? A ship can only be considered a god ship on how its meant to be and how it compares to its counterparts, not on who its fighting.

No you assume the difference between this ship and the Sov will be about the same as the difference between the GCS and Sov.

And some more, yes, based on chronological trending, advancement, and design briefs. You base yours on "nah, that's retarded".

I've said the difference would be far smaller since the Sov pushed the envelope for combat effectiveness where the GCS did not. This battleship is mearly building a bit more on that.

EXACTLY! The Sov pushed it, but not all the way - as we can clearly see by the corridors, quarters, labs, holodecks, etc etc etc! The battleship then pushed the envelope even further! But, on top of that, it's ALSO 20 years in the future. As I've said, the Sovereign could be stronger than it was when it was built, because it was not a battleship. If the Sovereign was designed as a battleship, it would be more powerful than the current Paladin - it would be a scaled up Defiant.
You're ignoring my point about the Sovereign being a decent battlecruiser of 2370. The Paladin as it currently stands is a good battlecruiser of 2370, but it's not a battleship (good or otherwise) of 2370, or certainly not of 2390. You've missed out this point every time.

The phaser power supply is a bit more iffy to judge but since it is powered by M/AM reaction we can assume to make them more power takes a bigger core. And since this ship is of Sov size it is safe to assume we dont get the HUGE power increase you propose.

Put it this way, if you scale up a Defiant to the size of a Sovereign, it would wipe the floor with the Sovereign. If you scale up the Defiant to the size of the Sovereign, add technology to make it fit in in 2390, it would wipe the floor with the Sovereign x 2, and that's precisely what the Paladin is meant to be.

As I've said, the Sovereign could be stronger than it was when it was built

Prove it.

I'm gonna use WW2 navy examples.


Battleship Yamato vs. Battleshiop Iowa.

the yamato was more powerful. Bigger guns, more armour IIRC. and yet, the Iowa would probably have one in the long run. why? tech and other aspects.

Blackstar the Chakat wrote:

As I've said, the Sovereign could be stronger than it was when it was built

Prove it.

me wrote:The Sov pushed it, but not all the way - as we can clearly see by the corridors, quarters, labs, holodecks, etc etc etc!

Thorin wrote:

Blackstar the Chakat wrote:

As I've said, the Sovereign could be stronger than it was when it was built

Prove it.

me wrote:The Sov pushed it, but not all the way - as we can clearly see by the corridors, quarters, labs, holodecks, etc etc etc!

So? That doesn't prove that they could carry additional phaser arrays or torpedoes.

So you consider the Sovereign a god ship? Every ship would be a god ship in certain circumstances. If you put the delta flyer against some modern day jets the delta flyer would be a god ship? A ship can only be considered a god ship on how its meant to be and how it compares to its counterparts, not on who its fighting.

Thats a shit example. There is only one ship that is close to this ship in terms of power and thats the Dominion Battleship. There are many near the Sov in terms of power.

And some more, yes, based on chronological trending, advancement, and design briefs. You base yours on "nah, that's retarded".

No as I said I believe the reason the Sov was such a step up was because for once they built a ship with combat in mind thus allowing for the huge jump we saw. Since that jump has been made we wont see it again.

Look at the difference between the Ambassidor and GCS class ships, much more like we expect to see between the Sov and Battleship.

EXACTLY! The Sov pushed it, but not all the way - as we can clearly see by the corridors, quarters, labs, holodecks, etc etc etc! The battleship then pushed the envelope even further! But, on top of that, it's ALSO 20 years in the future. As I've said, the Sovereign could be stronger than it was when it was built, because it was not a battleship. If the Sovereign was designed as a battleship, it would be more powerful than the current Paladin - it would be a scaled up Defiant.
You're ignoring my point about the Sovereign being a decent battlecruiser of 2370. The Paladin as it currently stands is a good battlecruiser of 2370, but it's not a battleship (good or otherwise) of 2370, or certainly not of 2390. You've missed out this point every time.

The Sov pushed it enough to make a huge jump, there is not going to be a jump anywhere near that big again.

And as I pointed out looking at technology improvements over time the jump I made is more in line with what we see in general.

The Sovereign could be stronger in some ways but not it all. Its shields would be pretty much maxed out even if they wanted to make them stronger, core out put is set. The only thing they could do is add armour and replace labs with torpedo tubes.

Blackstar the Chakat wrote: So? That doesn't prove that they could carry additional phaser arrays or torpedoes.

Um, yes it does. It proves they're wasting space and energy, which could go into defensive systems.

Thorin wrote:

Blackstar the Chakat wrote: So? That doesn't prove that they could carry additional phaser arrays or torpedoes.

Um, yes it does. It proves they're wasting space and energy, which could go into defensive systems.

Or that there is only so much hull space they can use to fit weapons. There could be limits that we don't know about.

Teaos wrote: Thats a **** example. There is only one ship that is close to this ship in terms of power and thats the Dominion Battleship. There are many near the Sov in terms of power.

No, there is only one ship that we know of that is a counter part to the Paladin. But other races will also have comparable things; Borg Spheres, Scimitars etc.

No as I said I believe the reason the Sov was such a step up was because for once they built a ship with combat in mind thus allowing for the huge jump we saw. Since that jump has been made we wont see it again.

Look at the difference between the Ambassidor and GCS class ships, much more like we expect to see between the Sov and Battleship.

They built it with combat in mind, but not solely - as I've said a million times, this is shown by the corridors, quarters etc. So a purebreed warship (the Defiant, the Paladin) still has things to work on, even before taking into account the 20 year gap.

The Sov pushed it enough to make a huge jump, there is not going to be a jump anywhere near that big again.

And as I pointed out looking at technology improvements over time the jump I made is more in line with what we see in general.

The Sovereign could be stronger in some ways but not it all. Its shields would be pretty much maxed out even if they wanted to make them stronger, core out put is set. The only thing they could do is add armour and replace labs with torpedo tubes.

The Sov didn't push it as far as it could, as said for the millionth and one time! The Sovereign could be stronger than the current Paladin if it was designed to be a pure warship, like the Defiant or Paladin, and that's not taking into account the 20 year gap. We've seen in plenty of things - AGT, Endgame - that 20 years is a long time for tactical upgrades. Core output is set, yes, but that doesn't mean that a load of the output is being input to crap like life support for corridors that are about three times wider than required, for holodecks etc. Not only is the Sovereign using power, but also space - space which could be used on non warp core energy requiring torpedos / launchers and the like.

The Paladin is meant to be a Defiant the size of a Sovereign, and 20 years in the future. If you can somehow prove to me - or even provide some shakey evidence - that a Defiant with 10 times its normal volume and with 20 years worth of advanced technology would be just 25% stronger than a 2370 Sovereign, then I'll concede. But we both know its not.

Blackstar the Chakat wrote:
Or that there is only so much hull space they can use to fit weapons. There could be limits that we don't know about.

Then pack the massive corridors and quarters with torpedos and turn off the life support to some of the huge volume of living space... Etc etc (again!)

Thorin wrote:

Blackstar the Chakat wrote:
Or that there is only so much hull space they can use to fit weapons. There could be limits that we don't know about.

Then pack the massive corridors and quarters with torpedos and turn off the life support to some of the huge volume of living space... Etc etc (again!)

You mean to torpedoes that are packed with a couple kilos of antimatter? If they're stored improperly and one has a faulty detonator you can kiss your ass goodbye.

Stop talking rubish, you know I was talking figuratively. Rather if you're going to be so petty; convert some of the corridor space to properly fitted torpedo bays.

You mean to torpedoes that are packed with a couple kilos of antimatter? If they're stored improperly and one has a faulty detonator you can kiss your ass goodbye.

That's supposed to refute his point that it could be more powerful?

His point remains: it's possible to fill the E-E up with more torps and phaser banks if you tear out the non-military crap.
Refute that or conceed.

Rochey wrote: His point remains: it's possible to fill the E-E up with more torps and phaser banks if you tear out the non-military crap.
Refute that or conceed.

There's only so much room to safely store torpedoes or phaser weapons along the hull. This is why submarines don't have 500 torpedoes and 20 torpedo tubes, or why we don't have navy ships where the top deck is covered in missile launchers and cannons.

Blackstar the Chakat wrote:

Rochey wrote: His point remains: it's possible to fill the E-E up with more torps and phaser banks if you tear out the non-military crap.
Refute that or conceed.

There's only so much room to safely store torpedoes or phaser weapons along the hull. This is why submarines don't have 500 torpedoes and 20 torpedo tubes, or why we don't have navy ships where the top deck is covered in missile launchers and cannons.

...Ignore my post, then.