Scimitar vs. Sovereign

[Captain Seafort]

I just thought of something that shoots down the "Worf Mistake" theory........Data. Date was at ops when the Scimitar decloaked. If Worf would have made a mistake there is no reason why Data would not have corrected him. We have seen Data give tactical analysis from ops before, you can't claim he did not have time to digest the scans, or did not have time to read the scans about the rest of the ship and the tactical.

.....unless Data made the same mistake.

If anything Data's more likely to fuck things up. He's got a track record of it, and Nemesis is far from his finest hour (forgetting about shuttle transporters, cargo transporters, and timers).

We are left with something confusing the sensors, which is not longer that simple of an argument.

Why not? There are a long list of things that mess up Trek sensors.

[Graham Kennedy]

Personally I just chalk it up to FX inconsistencies. Dialogue tends to carry more weight, in my mind. But YMMV; it can be interpreted either way.

[Tsukiyumi]

I'm with Graham.

And, I see my points are being ignored. That's fine.

[Sionnach Glic]

Can you prove they were not?

That's not my job. Burden of proof is on you to prove this is the case.

So we are back to explaining the 52 disruptor statement.

Why did the sensors read 52 weapons if there were not?

Just how many times do I have to repeat the half dozen possible ways that number could have been read out if it was not the case?

Which is exactly why this argument is different that one from the real world. If we were in the trek universe we could see what the sensor scan said.

Treat it as a documentary. If you never saw the blueprints of the Yamato in a WW2 doc, would you conclude that anything US officers ever said about it in said documentary was 100% correct?

....but then why were they not fired?

Because they're not there in the first place, which is exactly our whole point.

Since numerous theories have been put forth to explain what we see it really does not.

And those theories have been shown to violate Occam's Razor. They only rationalise that incident if you jump through hoops to explain it.

I have seen it, I have been watching the video's, you can see it when is fires a weapon

Exactly. You can also see it when it maneouvers sharply. That may be an effect of the nebula they were in at the time.

No, again they do not. A solution that fits all the evidence even if more complicated is preferred to on that is simpler and ignores some.

By all means, show me where I've at all ignored any evidence. So far, the only thing I've done is suggest Worf may have made a mistake, which is a far simpler explaination than anything you've put forward.

....or they would have little effect

So if they're far weaker than all the other guns, why didn't Worf point this out?
Seafort pointed out earlier that if the guns were far weaker than the main ones, it would be dereliction of duty for Worf not to mention this. Ergo, this explaination requires Worf to have fucked up big time......so in other words it's the exact same as what we're suggesting, but with more factors.

or that were not in the forward arc because small fast ship would probable avoid being head on with the Scimitar,

We saw the E-E and the Warbirds in the Scimitar's other arcs plenty of times. There was no sudden barrage of fire from those other aspects. Hell, a grand total of one gun was seen firing at a Warbird that was in the Scimitar's dorsal firing arc.

or since there were no small ships to fight off those system were never powered up of conserve power.

Prove they were designed to fight smaller ships.

...and this is part of the "simpler explanation".

Yes, as it uses information that is already canonical and well established.

No, see you guys fail to understand that the ship having 52 disruptors do not go against what is seen. You have been given 3 possibilities of how.

Yes, it does. Unless you can show me where those other guns were seen firing when Shinzon explicitly orders all guns to fire, we're left with the fact that the Scimitar has 5 observed guns, with the likelyhood of a sixth.

has been addressed and shown incorrect

Where has this been adressed?

is possible

And yet no other gun has ever been observed to take this long to fire.

also very possible

Care to put forth an explaination as to why?

No not the simplest, but simple is not always correct.

Just how many times do you want us to disprove this statement?

The way you are trying to use Occam's Razor "God did it" would be the answer to everything.

Actualy, Occam's Razor was created specificaly to disprove the existance of any kind of deity.

If the ship had only 6 weapons and on of them is destroyed it would reduce the overall firepower by the same %. So there is no disadvantage in grouping the weapons.

Utter Red Herring. The fact remains that clustering 52 guns into six point is completely retarded.

There is the advantage of not having to task any individual weapon to depletion. Perhaps this is why the Enterprise had 4% of its phaser capacity at the end and the Scimitar was still strong.

Or perhaps it has more to do with the fact that the Scimitar had a far greater power source.

Unless you go with one of the other three theories.

Which have been disproved......damn, I've lost count.

No, you just seem to think it is stupid, maybe becasue is it not your idea.

Actualy, both me and Seafort are very open to new ideas, provided they make sense. If we think something is stupid, there's a reason for why we think so.

Deck Gun?

Which were practicaly useless. Case closed.

What if it can't withdraw, I guess it would have to surrender. "Boy we could have used some extra firepower to fight our way out......aren't these Federation brigs roomy?

Did the fact that the Scimitar was equipped with an FTL drive escape you? Its shields give it ample time to set course and escape, and the fact that it could catch up with the E-E shows it to have some impressive speed in it. All it needs to do is set course for the nearest Romulan Starbase, or arrange a rendezvous with some Warbirds.

No it does not contradict Shinzon's order. If a captain of a modern battle ship orders all guns fire on an other ship the crew will not start firing its anti-aircraft weapons also.

Funny, I could have sworn I already disproved this argument.

Oh, wait, I did:

*sigh*
An anti-aircraft gun is not effective against a battleship.
A disruptor, even if it was smaller than the main guns, would have been effective against the Enterprise

If out of range no, but that goes back to the Remen tactical office not being a robot.

Ah, so these small guns have ranges of less than a kilometre, despite being designed to deal with small and fast moving targets?
Man, whoever designed that ship must have been even more stupid than I first thought.

....or not powered up, or not in the arc, or........

.....or yet another suggestion that's been torn down time and time again?

The problem is you don't get that you are just coming with a simple answer by throwing out evidence.

Nothing is being thrown out. How many times do we need to say this?

....and good for that other site, I don't agree with them either

You do realise that the guy who runs that site is a proffesional engineer, right? I think it's safe to say he knows far more about scientific method than you do.

Who about you address these since visuals are always better.

You know, those are adressed in the links I posted.....which you'd know if you'd actualy read them instead of just giving them a cursory glance and declaring you disagree with them.

Holy christ, it's like dealing with Blackstar all over again.
(come to think of it, didn't the chakat argue with me over this very same subject?)

I just thought of something that shoots down the "Worf Mistake" theory........Data. Date was at ops when the Scimitar decloaked. If Worf would have made a mistake there is no reason why Data would not have corrected him. We have seen Data give tactical analysis from ops before, you can't claim he did not have time to digest the scans, or did not have time to read the scans about the rest of the ship and the tactical.

Data's fucked up time after time after time. Hell, this uber-android lost a chess match to Deana "I sense the blindingly obvious" Troi. A genius he is not.

[Sionnach Glic]

Holy shit these replies are getting ridiculously big.

Okay, let's boil it down to one simple question:
Can you prove the existance of these extra guns without reffering to Worf's quote?

[Graham Kennedy]

Holy s**t these replies are getting ridiculously big.

Okay, let's boil it down to one simple question:
Can you prove the existance of these extra guns without reffering to Worf's quote?

Though I haven't read through all those big-ass posts in detail, it seems to me that it would be just as correct to say "can you prove Worf's number is wrong, without referring to the visual effects?"

Either Worf is right or the FX is. It could be either, but there's no reason I can think of why it HAS to be one or the other.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'd put more weight on the visuals in this case for the simple fact that so much was directly observed (about, what, ten or fifteen minutes in total?) whereas the Scimitar's missing guns were refferenced in just one line.

There's also the fact that asking me to disprove the existance of the guns would be asking me to prove a negative.

[Graham Kennedy]

I'd put more weight on the visuals in this case for the simple fact that so much was directly observed (about, what, ten or fifteen minutes in total?) whereas the Scimitar's missing guns were refferenced in just one line.

Which is fine. Whereas I take the view that they clearly intended the Scimitar to be a very heavily armed ship with a lot of weapons - "a predator", as Picard called it. I generally go with dialogue where there is a conflict, because that's what the writer wanted it to be, whereas the FX is more about what looks cool. Let's face it, this is not documentary footage we're watching here. So why start with the assumption that it is?

[kostmayer]

I enjoy debating the minutiae of Trek as much as anyone, but there's a risk of taking it too seriously, Its not always possible to come up with in universe explanations for every discrepancy we see and hear on screen,

As has been stated, it either has 52 disruptor's or it doesn't. In this case, I'm gonna side with the dialogue and say that it has the 52 and put the absence of them on screen as bad writing/ naff effects.

Trying to come up with an in universe explanation seems a bit pointless in this case. And Occam should grow a beard.

As for Data ignoring all the transporters on the shuttles and what not - well, everyone does that.

[Graham Kennedy]

There's a degree of commonsense to be had here, as well. Suppose the initial sensor readings had been wrong. Surely, at some point after that somebody would comment on it? "Sir, now only reading four disrupter banks on the Scimitar. It appears the earlier readings were incorrect."

I've said this before with regards to ship design; when you reach a point where you are saying basically that because of FX or some oddity of design or whatever, all the characters in a movie must be a bunch of incompetent morons... well I think you've arrived in a rather silly position and need to have a bit of a rethink about the thought process that got you there.

[m52nickerson]

Since it seem that many of see this the same way, we should put our heads together and come up with a way to explain the script and the visuals.

Personally I'm leaning towards the Scimitar have some were in the range of 6-10 large disruptors as main guns and the rest being point defense to fend off smaller attack craft. This fits well with the fact that the Romulan Warbirds did not fare so well against groups of Dominion attack ships. During the battle with the Enterprise they could have been off line to provide more power to other system.

Thoughts.

[Aaron]

Since it seem that many of see this the same way, we should put our heads together and come up with a way to explain the script and the visuals.

Personally I'm leaning towards the Scimitar have some were in the range of 6-10 large disruptors as main guns and the rest being point defense to fend off smaller attack craft. This fits well with the fact that the Romulan Warbirds did not fare so well against groups of Dominion attack ships. During the battle with the Enterprise they could have been off line to provide more power to other system.

Thoughts.

My first instinct is to simply declare the Remans (and Shinzon) as morons. Trek is part of the Sci-Fi trifecta of idiots afterall. But a more acceptable option is simply to say that the Remans are inexperianced at space combat. We know that they were used during the Dominion War as shock troops but we know frig all about their space combat experance and in general allowing a race of slaves access to starships that can destroy an ecosystem is not a good plan.

[Graham Kennedy]

Since it seem that many of see this the same way, we should put our heads together and come up with a way to explain the script and the visuals.

Personally I'm leaning towards the Scimitar have some were in the range of 6-10 large disruptors as main guns and the rest being point defense to fend off smaller attack craft. This fits well with the fact that the Romulan Warbirds did not fare so well against groups of Dominion attack ships. During the battle with the Enterprise they could have been off line to provide more power to other system.

Thoughts.

I kinda like that. lots of little CIWS type guns that aren't used in heavy ship to ship combat because they're too weak, or lack the range, or whatever.

[Aaron]

I kinda like that. lots of little CIWS type guns that aren't used in heavy ship to ship combat because they're too weak, or lack the range, or whatever.

Shouldn't they have been shooting down the E-E's torpedoes then?

[m52nickerson]

My first instinct is to simply declare the Remans (and Shinzon) as morons. Trek is part of the Sci-Fi trifecta of idiots afterall. But a more acceptable option is simply to say that the Remans are inexperianced at space combat. We know that they were used during the Dominion War as shock troops but we know frig all about their space combat experance and in general allowing a race of slaves access to starships that can destroy an ecosystem is not a good plan.

This could be, but they did come up with the radiation weapon. Not saying that they are aces when it come to ship to ship combat but I would give them slightly more credit.

I kinda like that. lots of little CIWS type guns that aren't used in heavy ship to ship combat because they're too weak, or lack the range, or whatever.

Shouldn't they have been shooting down the E-E's torpedoes then?

Possibly, but it could also be that the torpedoes move faster than the smaller ships.